What Is Rockism ?

it's absolutely true. and the choice of targets is even more striking given the way women don't really exist in the hot 100's upper echelons right now. like, what are you arguing against here?

"you" = writers of these pieces

Help me understand this then: http://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/2016/top-billboard-200-albums

― pomenitul, Thursday, May 11, 2017 12:15 PM (two minutes ago)

what's most interesting about this list is that a lot of these albums are successful despite LACK OF support from the segments of the industry that prop up 'pop'/top 40 music. looking at the top 10 on the list:

- 3 generated zero major hits in the top 40 sphere (hamilton, chris stapleton, lemonade)
- 3 were from artists whose songs were crossing over to, not breaking at, pop radio (drake, rihanna, 21 pilots). drake and rihanna also managed to get major hits that charted well despite being largely ignored by top 40 radio ("needed me", "controlla"). it's interesting and somewhat telling imo that rihanna, who has been a straight-ahead top 40 artist for the vast majority of her career, opted for the urban-crossover route this time around.
- 1 album was by an artist delivering pop hits and crossover r&b hits in roughly equal measure (the weeknd)
- 3 are straightforward top 40 albums (bieber, one direction, adele -- who's actually an adult contemporary artist, but sure)

3 non-crossover pop albums out of the top 10 and 3 albums with no pop radio hits at all does not exactly speak to the hegemony of pop. and the scales are going to tip even further away from pop as the dominant commercial force in the coming years, to be displaced by more edm and 'urban' (i hate that euphemism) music. just watch!

well, streaming... complicates that

it does. tbh i would be excitedly cheering along the incoming shifts if they weren't also damaging to women artists.

it's never Twenty-One Pilots, DJ Khaled, the Chainsmokers, and Posner who get grief from pieces like this – it's Swift and Beyonce.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, May 11, 2017 2:44 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

BTW: I literally googles "Chainsmokers bad" and there seems to actually be quite a few articles about them sucking including one that comes up w/the dreaded Nickelback comparison

https://www.google.com/search?q=chainsmokers+bad&rlz=1C1NHXL_enUS736US736&oq=chainsmokers+bad&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2145j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

what's most interesting about this list is that a lot of these albums are successful despite LACK OF support from the segments of the industry that prop up 'pop'/top 40 music. looking at the top 10 on the list:

- 3 generated zero major hits in the top 40 sphere (hamilton, chris stapleton, lemonade)
- 3 were from artists whose songs were crossing over to, not breaking at, pop radio (drake, rihanna, 21 pilots). drake and rihanna also managed to get major hits that charted well despite being largely ignored by top 40 radio ("needed me", "controlla"). it's interesting and somewhat telling imo that rihanna, who has been a straight-ahead top 40 artist for the vast majority of her career, opted for the urban-crossover route this time around.
- 1 album was by an artist delivering pop hits and crossover r&b hits in roughly equal measure (the weeknd)
- 3 are straightforward top 40 albums (bieber, one direction, adele -- who's actually an adult contemporary artist, but sure)

3 non-crossover pop albums out of the top 10 and 3 albums with no pop radio hits at all does not exactly speak to the hegemony of pop. and the scales are going to tip even further away from pop as the dominant commercial force in the coming years, to be displaced by more edm and 'urban' (i hate that euphemism) music. just watch!

― dyl, Thursday, May 11, 2017 3:50 PM (twenty seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That makes sense to some extent but I think my definition of 'pop' encompasses more subgenres than yours. To be fair, I also tend to think of rock as pop, so in and of itself the rockist/popist divide strikes me as moot to begin with.

Ultimately I'm more interested in the antagonism between 'pop(ular) vs. less popular' music.

their music is awful, the singer is a cute douche, and commercially they're a much bigger deal than Beyonce.

i take your word for it they suck! i'm just saying the press does seem to target them too

ok, i see what you mean then. again i think critics tend to treat those subgenres differently but i might be wrong b/c i don't really pay that much attention to the critical sphere.

xp

like I said upthread, they're viewed as more disposable because they're not celebrities, they just make music, which is some very weird through-the-looking-glass stuff. (it doesn't help that EDM artists only have a 50-50 shot of crediting their vocalists, who are a) the up-and-coming pop stars who are supposed to be boosted by these collaborations b) women)

commercially they're a much bigger deal than Beyonce.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, May 11, 2017 3:56 PM (six minutes ago)

Is this really true? Maybe I'm not looking in the right places but I can't find anything to corroborate that.

To be fair, I also tend to think of rock as pop, so in and of itself the rockist/popist divide strikes me as moot to begin with.

OTM. Need to go back to when music was real, with musicians who could actually read playing real unamplified instruments under the direction of conductors who were really feeling it.

Is this really true? Maybe I'm not looking in the right places but I can't find anything to corroborate that.

― pomenitul, Thursday, May 11, 2017 4:03 PM

check out Beyonce's streaming and single sales of Lemonade compared to Drake and the Chainsmokers.

God awmighty if the R word upsets you you're the problem irrespective of technical stupidity

OTM. Need to go back to when music was real, with musicians who could actually read playing real unamplified instruments under the direction of conductors who were really feeling it.

― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Thursday, May 11, 2017 4:08 PM (forty-one seconds ago)

Not good enough. If your flute isn't a hand-carved femur, I don't want to hear it.

Based on presentations in my music tech classes, Chainsmokers are definitely a big deal.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--fEBZZaDe--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_center,h_900,q_80,w_1600/c8ciauhwifa2djnf5coq.jpg

it's never Twenty-One Pilots, DJ Khaled, the Chainsmokers, and Posner who get grief from pieces like this – it's Swift and Beyonce.

because the perception is that pop critics don't rep for these musicians like they do Taylor Swift & Beyonce. it's almost as though Taylor Swift & Beyonce have, like, star power or something

yeah this is kind of my point, the bros of summer, who got to where they are because of halsey and phoebe ryan and emily warren

(the latter of whose PR sends me about two emails a week pleading with me to acknowledge her existence, because the chainsmokers barely are)

Not good enough. If your flute isn't a hand-carved femur, I don't want to hear it.

Neanderthalist

that billboard cover is horrifying

Take sides: Neanderthalism or Australopithecism?

how has m@tt never posted on ILG before aren't you a professional nerd?

how has m@tt never posted on ILG before aren't you a professional nerd?

― flopson, Thursday, May 11, 2017 3:28 PM (two seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i guess i could now cuz i'm not anymore but i didn't want to leave a "paper trail" for reddit weirdos or neogaf junior gaming journalism sleuths to dig up because i tend to jest a lot on ilx

also i guess i felt like if i had thoughts abt games i should have written them for the site or mag

I don't post on ILG either, I mean

lol gamers

whiney OTM that the strain of poptimism currently in vogue is a rockist abomination of the poptimistic ideal of a race-to-the-bottom to contraristan for the lowest common denom pop trash.

call it 'market poptimism' because that's what it is — a response to the internet allowing the market's id to turn into a dictator

imo it's a 'teach a man to fish' type of thing. poptimists eight years ago were like 'it's okay to like Beyoncé!!!' but instead of internalizing the more general lesson of openmindedness to the beauty and craft of lcd pop and awareness of our bias against it, ppl just became rockists who also like Beyoncé now

who?

or are you paraphrasing the article?

OTM. Need to go back to when music was real, with musicians who could actually read playing real unamplified instruments under the direction of conductors who were really feeling it.

joking but true. there was a time when music only existed on paper, when every house had a piano, when you could get a job in a local orchestra, when pop music culture intertwined with folk culture and family traditions. recorded music killed so much.

a time when songs were alive, dynamic, constantly morphing, taking in regional differences, changing with the times. now songs are dead, a deceased corpse legally defined and restricted to one official version and only officially-approved variations

You and your grave robbery

there was a time when music only existed on paper, when every house had a piano, when you could get a job in a local orchestra, when pop music culture intertwined with folk culture and family traditions. recorded music killed so much.

When I interviewed Derek Bailey, he went on a tangent about all the different jobs he'd had as a working musician - playing for burlesque dancers, playing at factory workers' picnics, playing in a million different social contexts that required music. He was a pro before he was the God of Improvisation, and he was a pro before there were jukeboxes in every bar. I wish I still had the full recording, but it was on a long-lost microcassette that I never digitized.

xps- haven't read the article but i agree with what whiney said:

Like I said before, there is no true poptimism right now.

An actual poptimist critic would be riding for the pop music that America actually, actively embraces and enjoys like the Chainsmokers, Meghan Trainor, Twenty One Pilots, Lukas Graham, Flo Rida, Mike Posner, Shawn Mendes, etc.

Instead artists who work in the pop genre just started releasing albums and "statements" like rock musicians do and we look at them through that rockist lens.

feel like a true poptimist critic would best be drawn from the ranks of out-of-work conservative pundits. how do you "criticize" something that has essentially no intellectual component whatsoever?

...

trump

feel like a true poptimist critic would best be drawn from the ranks of out-of-work conservative pundits. how do you "criticize" something that has essentially no intellectual component whatsoever?

― increasingly bonkers (rushomancy), Thursday, May 11, 2017

certainly you troll as well as somebody in NRO World.

ok, i'll walk it back. i guess there's as much need and value for flo rida thinkpieces as there is for nickelback thinkpieces.

Criticism and "need" have had nothing do with each other in a capitalist society.

whiney OTM that the strain of poptimism currently in vogue is a rockist abomination of the poptimistic ideal of a race-to-the-bottom to contraristan for the lowest common denom pop trash.

okay but are beyonce and taylor swift and harry styles really making "the lowest common denom pop trash"? are all the critics who loved Lemonade or 1989 or whatnot just deluded? cynical? lying? are those really the worst records in all of pop?

like, this is my exact problem with the article, as soon as one makes the tiniest puncture of conditions in music writing then all the old shit floods back in, because it never went anywhere in the first place.

also if it was really rockist then writers would give more of a shit about the music and its writers/performers but we're still stuck in "who is Max Martin?" baby land

those artists aren't lcd pop trash, they're perceived as a cut above and make Prestige statement releases, that's the point

tbh, aside from maybe rolling teenybopper thread 2006, im not sure poptimists ever lived up to the ideal

Criticism and "need" have had nothing do with each other in a capitalist society.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

for that matter art and "need" have nothing to do with each other in a capitalist society. so... the whole thread is rearranging deck chairs, no?

That Ned Raggett on rockism thread was a good one.