Let's figure out Dream Theater.

main crime = boooooooring. there's plenty of prog metal that isn't so....I listen to that.

tho tbh the only prog metal I listen to is Symphony X and Pain of Salvation and the latter have been dull for a decade

But see, I like prog and I like metal and I like prog-metal, and I even like boring, but this ... isn't really any of that. It's more like total cheese a la Trans-Siberian Orchestra crossed with crossover Queensryche crossed with Berklee College jam session or some shit like that. Like if someone came up with an AI script that generated prog-metal and them some other snotty programmer threw in some code for Bon Jovi or something, just to fuck with the results.

what they really need is to get mutt lange to produce them. they'd sound better that way.

Well they couldn't sound worse!

They should get Mutt to write and produce, then get other people to play. And then shelve the album anyway.

I try with them sometimes. I don't hate them but nothing really sticks.

they're just trying too hard, all the time

I tend to feel the same way but a lot of non-moronic people obv really love them. So how do we figure them out? I usually just put it down to not being the right mix of things for my taste, in the way that ELP usually is not, even though I love KC/Yes/Genesis. Kris probably somewhat OTM way upthread.

the object of dream theater is not to write good music. the object of dream theater is for each individual musician to come up with parts that impress those that play the same instrument so that they can sell instructional tapes and make the cover of Modern Drummer/Modern Goatee Keyboardist/Modern 9-string Bass Player/etc. they represent a different ethos of making and listening to music, a technical path with goals that only occasionally align with the traditional taste spectrum. magazines like modern drummer steer people toward this alternate world early on, when they're learning to play instruments. it's possible to get sucked in early and never return. it's kind of like an aspiring young writer who picks up "how to write magazine", and the first article is all about a writer who can cram more syllables into each sentence then ever thought possible. the second article is about how to write the most complicated sentence that technically still includes a subject and predicate, but disguised so that all but the most advanced readers of How to Write Magazine would never be able to identify them. the third article is just about superlong German words. the feature cover article is about someone who converts major works of literature to ascii art and then "speedreads" the ascii art, flipping through images rapidly to finish moby dick even more quickly than ever thought possible. if you sink yourself into this world for a few years at a formative time, these novelties become the main act, and the practitioners become the gurus who point to new (bad) directions because they're the only ones who care enough about the subject to talk about it.

there's a lot of overlap with all of this and marching band, too

every huge fan of dream theater should know that they would also be a huge fan of the Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps. i know this because i was a huge fan of both! they straddle the same view of music

Lol I was a subscriber to Guitar magazine when I learned guitar. Petrucci had a column that bored me to tears.

I remember reading the superlative statements made about the G3 tour crowd and being naive and impressionable, thinking "wow, why does nobody talk about these guys?"

And then went for my first voice lesson at a studio that also had guitar teachers and they had one of these things on loop and that (and when I heard Vai's "Bad Horsie") was when I realized it was guitar MUZAK.

It sucks because then people see technique as a bad word since it could lead to that but largely the reason i gave up guitar was cos i felt my enjoyment of it was stunted because of the things i couldn't do that i wanted to be able to do.

My best friend growing up surpassed me fast and he became one of these guys. Listened to Vai, Bela Fleck, boring shit, and it was all he played. He was a brilliant guitarist though.

Lost touch with him at 16. Five years ago, ran into his mother. He's living in CA making beats for rappers.

This is more like athletics than music. The most irritating thing about it all is the contempt that fans of this shit show for any musician who doesn't aspire to the same level of fretboard velocity. Makes me want to play Loiue Louie at them. I mean, the DT guys aren't even very good musicians! No way could any of them play anything funky to save their lives. Then again, they wouldn't want to. They'd see it as 'simplistic'.
Ugh.

the object of dream theater is not to write good music. the object of dream theater is for each individual musician to come up with parts that impress those that play the same instrument so that they can sell instructional tapes and make the cover of Modern Drummer/Modern Goatee Keyboardist/Modern 9-string Bass Player/etc.

I mean I know it's linked upthread somewhere but just to single out this post in particular (one of the best individual posts in all the history of ILX)

John Petrucci brings you...ROCK DISCIPLINE (a picture thread if the pictures can fit)

Based on this review, I can see DT no other way than as described.

Makes me want to play Loiue Louie at them

It's a question I've asked my guitar teacher a few times: do you think Vai, Satriani, et al. could even play "Wild Thing" or Louie Louie" or whatever all the way through? Or would they just kind of start and then put down the guitar, asking "why would I want to do that?" Obviously EVH could, but he was a garage rocker virtuoso, not some clinical tech shred dude. I also wonder if someone like, I dunno, Dream Theater dude ever picks up one of these Most Influential Guitarists lists, sees, I dunno, Johnny Ramone ahead of him, puts on a Ramones album, and is all, huh, don't get it. Then goes back to shredding.

Yeah, groove is totally beyond these guys' capacity. They recorded a medley of Led Zeppelin covers years ago - listen to the way Mike Portnoy (their drummer back then) speeds up "The Rover" and just lets all the heaviness seep out of it:

https://open.spotify.com/track/2QoV9s70tc0XkddoovqiUB

I mean I know it's linked upthread somewhere but just to single out this post in particular (one of the best individual posts in all the history of ILX)

John Petrucci brings you...ROCK DISCIPLINE (a picture thread if the pictures can fit)

Based on this review, I can see DT no other way than as described.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, February 25, 2017 10:56 AM (thirty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

BOOOOOORING! COME ON PETRUCCI, MAKE ME A PROG MONSTER!!!

thank u for this gift ned

nah marching band music is way better than dream theater. here are a bunch of shirtless teenage boys playing univers zero's "dense" on marimba.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX3MfIlld8Y

as for "wild thing", _hendrix_ couldn't play it all the way through without lighting his guitar on fire, and i'm not going to give him shit for that.

Fair enough. Maybe he realized there was no way to better the original short of lighting his guitar on fire.

It would be cool if Dream Theater lit all their instruments on fire.

it would be cool if dream theater lit themselves on fire

One Night Only!

Matt #2 OTM.

I remember Mike Portnoy being interviewed and he was asked "how do you define progressive rock?" and his answer was something like "concepts, long songs and definitely an emphasis on technical musicianship" ... I mean, sure, if your sole exposure to prog is Emerson, Lake and Palmer.

Not even King Crimson, Yes and Rush went full tilt on the technical playing all the time, as fine musicians as they were.

I mean, Rush did 'Fly by Night', which is as straight ahead '70s rock as you could get. King Crimson did things like 'Red' and even Yes knew when to chill the fuck out.

I think it's fairly common to associate prog with technical proficiency, the standard rock history narrative (problematic ofc) abt prog v. punk makes a big point of this

Except a lot of the best prog was punk as fuck. I was thinking more recently how punk was, handmade I Hate Pink Floyd t-shirts aside, less a rebellion against prog and more against boring singer-songwriters. Or even against Led Zeppelin for that matter. Just anti show-offery in general.

Never properly listened to Dream Theatre but I've always been cautious of these type of dismissals because I've heard so many great bands described like this by people who probably never gave them a fair shot but maybe Dream Theatre, Vai, Malmsteem etc are actually like you guys and most people say? Not many of us here have a pathological aversion to solos and highly technical stuff. There's a lot of similar unfair dismissals among cartoonists and illustrators that is often coming from insecurity.

I know someone who really likes a few Dream Theatre albums so I've always wanted to give them a shot someday. I heard a little bit a few years ago and it sounded okay but not alluring.

xp yeah was not so much offering support for the standard narrative as suggesting that the guy from DT perhaps shouldn't be faulted too much for thinking prog = technical chops, and I do think a lot of prog acts like DT attract audiences that are _very_ into perfection and technical complexity

but it's not my main idea of prog either, remember talking with a literature professor, he told me he was attending a Steven Wilson concert, I was like, cool, what kinda music is it? He asked me if I was into prog, I said, definitely! He said: it is prog _manna_

and so I was quite surprised when later he sent me some (p cool) live videos of Steven Wilson playing unbeliavably perfect versions of 22 minute long songs, cause I had more thought of Iron Butterfly or maybe Neu! but no, this Pynchon-expert, great guy, was totally into that type of prog

fortunately steven wilson is not dream theater

I've always been cautious of these type of dismissals because I've heard so many great bands described like this by people who probably never gave them a fair shot

This + I don't think they would do concept albums if all they cared about was displaying their instrumental technique + I do trust that some of the people I know who like them are getting more than this out of it.

yeah, I like that the objective of the thread is to figure how to get Dream Theater since a lot of music fans get a great kick out of them

It's the arrogance of precision and prowess that bugs me, the idea that because they can play better than others it somehow makes the music better as well. Obviously there are all sorts of cool bands that can play well - you can't get fussier or more precise than, say, XTC - but technique for technique's sake just sucks. At its most indulgent I think Yes falls into this trap, but that band at least had vision and its playing fed into that vision. DT's vision is just to play well, afaict, which serves nothing but itself, which is the worst kind of indulgent.

I like awesome technique, too, I should say, but DT is just so patronizing about it. That is, the playing in Mahavishnu Orchestra (for example) is awe-inspiring, but DT is at once self-conscious about its virtuosity - we're going to one-up Mahavisnhnu, or Rush, or Maiden, or whomever, because we are even better trained! - or self-defeating, like, we can do whatever we want, but we're going to dumb ourselves down with silly vocals or nods to metal, because that puts butts in seats.

Makes me want to play Loiue Louie at them.

When I was 16 I was in a summer music program where my roommate was this super-proficient guitarist. He was a super nice guy, but he put pictures of Yngwie and Tony MacAlpine and Steve Vai all over the walls. We didn't get in each others' way when we listened to music; I let him play his Yngwie or whatever and he allowed me my Velvets. But one day while I was listening to 1969 Live he cracked. He basically said the only reason the Velvets played that way was because they were physically incapable of playing fast. There could not possibly be any other reason, and certainly no reason for anyone to waste time listening to it. He was basically making Yngwie's "More is more!" argument a couple decades early. But I'm reminded of the tone of utter bafflement in his argument whenever someone brings up Dream Theater or a similar band.

This is more like athletics than music. The most irritating thing about it all is the contempt that fans of this shit show for any musician who doesn't aspire to the same level of fretboard velocity. Makes me want to play Loiue Louie at them. I mean, the DT guys aren't even very good musicians! No way could any of them play anything funky to save their lives. Then again, they wouldn't want to. They'd see it as 'simplistic'.
Ugh.

even Yes knew when to chill the fuck out.

I was listening to "South Side of the Sky" this morning, and Bruford's riding the backbeat the whole way. I don't think he plays even so much as a grouping of 16th notes in the whole song.

the idea that because they can play better than others it somehow makes the music better as well.

As well as the idea that because it has a concept, it immediately has some kind of artistic merit.

Both Yes and Rush could def groove!

Josh- When would you say Yes fell into this because I haven't heard anything by them that made me think of that? Steve Howe said he regretted parts of his playing in Going For The One as being needlessly complex but I don't think he went overboard to the extent of ruining the songs.

I grew up on the NME/Uncut approved lineage and I still love most of that stuff but I have to say that after getting into prog in a big way, a lot of alternative rock really does sound too simple and maybe even more prone to having filler tracks.

It's really never that bad, honestly, I was just thinking of some of the really complex vocals, I think. Like in ... Close to the Edge, maybe? Stuff on that album is just generally complex and busy, though not ruined or that objectionably awful or anything compared to DT.

If I were to change anything about the album it definitely wouldn't be those overlapping vocals, they're amazing! But I could only make minor quibbling suggestions, like maybe "Siberian Khatru" doesn't need the short tangent near the end.

yeah, I like that the objective of the thread is to figure how to get Dream Theater since a lot of music fans get a great kick out of them

― niels

dream theater have the dubious honour of being the only band i've ever stopped liking. i was into them for six months when i first got into prog and i just eventually moved on.

for me, and i therefore assume for most dream theater fans, they're dazzled by dream theater's flash, the trans-siberien orchestra thing. it's lack of style over lack of substance. i don't assume they're hearing something i'm not, as i do for most music i dislike. i assume they're hearing the same shit i am but they actually enjoy that sort of shit.

If I were to change anything about the album it definitely wouldn't be those overlapping vocals, they're amazing! But I could only make minor quibbling suggestions, like maybe "Siberian Khatru" doesn't need the short tangent near the end.

― Robert Adam Gilmour

what, the vocal/drum unison thing? nah, i wouldn't do without a second of it. the thing about that album is it's filled with shit that would otherwise be gimmicky, church organ and sitar and all the shit like that, but it's so tightly compositionally integrated that it works regardless. without the vocal/drum unison break i don't think squire's bass solo would have the impact it does. i don't even _like_ yes, but i can't help but be impressed by the maturity of their composition on that record.

Why do I specifically enjoy this music so much? As the son of two music teachers who had classically refined musical tastes, I was exposed to a lot of opera and symphonic music while growing up. Oversaturation of the classics set in at an early age, yet through so much exposure I developed a mature appreciation for the fundamentals of musical technique. After experimenting with the Styx-Chicago-Journey-Supertramp-Kansas-Triumph genre and some hair metal in high school, my favorite bands emerged as Rush and Queensryche. These bands of course balance melodic hooks and technically difficult accompaniment very well, and bring meaningful lyrics into the mix. I enjoyed some harder rock in brief moments, but the likes of Pantera and pre-"Sandman" Metallica were a little too heavy for me at the time.

When I was first introduced to Dream Theater through my college roommate's Images & Words CD, I instantly knew it was the perfect unique mix of my life's worth of musical tastes. I must have spun this CD literally thousands of times over the last 10 years--for the first year I played it 3 to 5 times a day, back to back, sometimes skipping class to master the lyrics or reverse engineer the time changes and syncopation. Impossible! Hypnotic! ADDICTIVE.

If this were almost any other band, I would say that the almost-too-self-indulgent vocals of James LaBrie are supported by some of the world's best chops on instruments. But Mike Portnoy on drums, John Petrucci on guitar, and Kevin Moore on keyboards all have lead roles in the musicality of the CD. While individualistic, these parts combine with a tour-de-force of power that somehow works extremely well together. John Myung's bass part usually lends a supportive role rather than a leading presence, but his musicianship and technical mastery of the instrument are phenomenal as well.

LaBrie is an exceptionally strong vocalist, and his part-time bravado / part-time pussycat approach probably would not have matched as well with the style of any other band I can think of. Each band member deserves a significant bio, but rather than having me take apart each of his tendencies in this meaningless text, one truly must experience the blend of talent in person to understand. SO BUY THE CD! After you've become hooked, check out some of DT's other work. They are a band who have achieved a significant hard-core international fan base by doing things THEIR way, maintaining their dignity by avoiding the common and sticking to what makes them unique. No sellouts in this group!

The bottom line? After spinning the CD a few times to get through the technical facade, the listener finds himself interactively engaged with the music, craving a deeper understanding of the lyrics, wanting to decipher the difficult musical passages, and trying to imagine himself as a character in the dramatic scenes that are playing out. Yes, the "images and words" brought forth by this music transports the imaginative listener to a "dream theater." Like the near-perfect details in these songs, the names of the CD and the band were not chosen by accident.

from Fun With Amazon Reviews

Part-time pussycat.

I don't strongly object to any of that Yes stuff, like I said, they have vision, which helps it cohere. But some of it gets a little too busy for my tastes, sort of busy for its own sake, like a lot of cool ideas strung together because nobody was going to cut their own cool idea. Which if I recall correctly is one of the main sources of conflict that sometimes bogged down Yes to begin with.

Rushomancy- no, the short harpsichord bit. I really love harpsichord but it feels a bit unnecessary.

[Instrumental Intro]

[Guitar Theme]

[Drums rolling]

[Keyboard theme]

[Bass guitar theme]

[Ensemble together]

[Hard theme]

[Hard theme variation]

[Drums]

[Verse 1]
Lost in the sky
Clouds roll by and I roll with them
Arrows fly
Seas increase and then fall again

[Pre-Chorus 1]
This world is spinning around me
This world is spinning without me and
Every day send future to past
Every breath leaves me one less to my last

[Instrumental Bridge 1]

[Verse 2]
Watch the sparrow falling
Gives new meaning to it all
If not today nor yet tomorrow
Then some other day
I'll take seven lives for one
And then my only father's son
As sure as I did ever love him
I am not afraid

[Pre-Chorus 2]
This world is spinning around me
The whole world keeps
Spinning around me
All life is future to past
Every breath leaves me one less
To my last

[Instrumental Bridge 2]

[Guitar Solo 1]

[Chorus 1]
Pull me under, pull me under
Pull me under, I'm not afraid
All that I feel is honor and spite
All I can do is set it right

[Instrumental Bridge 3]

[Verse 3]
Dust fills my eyes
Clouds roll by and I roll with them
Centuries cry
Orders fly and I fall again

[Pre-Chorus 3]
This world is spinning inside me
The whole world is spinning inside of me
Every day sends future to past
Every step brings me closer to my last

[Instrumental Bridge 4]

[Guitar Solo 1]

[Chorus 2]
Pull me under, pull me under
Pull me under, I'm not afraid
Living my life too much in the sun
Only until your will is done

[Instrumental Bridge 5]

[Keyboard Solo 1]

[Guitar Solo 2]

[Chorus 1]

[Chorus 2]

[Instrumental Bridge 6]

[Hard theme alternate]

[Hard theme alternate variation]

[Outro]
Oh that this too
Too solid flesh
Would melt

i crave a deeper understanding of these lyrics

http://i.imgur.com/O54K40Z.jpg

Living my life too much in the sun
Only until your will is done

What the fuck did I just read?

When I read a thread about Dream Theater, I always think we're talking about Tangerine Dream until I read a few sentences.

http://i.imgur.com/ZGZSMnJ.jpg

This world is spinning around me
The whole world keeps
Spinning around me
All life is future to past
Every breath leaves me one less
To my last

[Instrumental Bridge 2]

[Guitar Solo 1]

but THEN, later,

This world is spinning inside me
The whole world is spinning inside of me
Every day sends future to past
Every step brings me closer to my last

this whole world is spinning either way, but earlier in the song it is around him. but later on, it is inside of him. you might think that means he is getting larger, since at the beginning the world is spinning around him and later it is inside of him. but no, there is another way. what if he is the sun (the son!?!?!?!??!), and THAT's why the world is spinning around him, but then the world moves inside of him (the son1?!!?!?) but still somehow it spins. there is a bunch to look into here, these are early days