Songs that fool you about where the downbeat is.

haha same

^^truth bomb new borad description etc

We Will Rock You - Queen
Is it just me or does the accent on the down beat that is so prominent at the beginning fade away as the song progresses? I think the transition is most noticeable when the guitar comes in.

Aphex Twin "Schottkey 7th Path" – the bass drum sounding thing is on the offbeat, right?

you mean the persistent quarter note part? because i definitely hear that on the downbeat. where do you hear the synth part starting?

a few songs come to mind that may or may not fit this thread:

"Hold On To Your Genre" - Les Savy Fav, the way the drums come in, it takes a while to tell the snare is on the back beat
"Disko" - Komeda, down beat seems to change around :30
"Return The Gift" - Gang of Four, intro kind of fakes you out until drums come in
"You Hit The Nail On The Head" - Funkadelic, just a generally tricky groove during the intro

The "Meet you all the way" part of "Rosanna" by Toto

so many john lee hooker solo songs. he taps out an accent-free beat with his foot, starts lines wherever/whenever he feels like starting 'em, improvises as he goes, is awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwlg3m-7N64

Yeah, I think maybe that it's not just that he starts lines wherever he wants, improvising as he goes, but that there are also some "irregular" metric tendencies inherent in his music that are just not easy to understand or hear?

The second song on the video - It's a triple meter until he gets to the guitar line at 2:52. That line, to me, suggests an extension. He deliberately extended the bar for one beat.

The passage shortly after that I can't figure out at all.

You know, "Price Tag" by Sleater Kinney. Lots of weird meter stuff going on at the start of this one.

Kind of a war between 4/4 and 3/4, where 4/4 wins.

I don't know, fcc, maybe you're right. If I listen to "Drifter" from Hooker 'n Heat, they seem to be putting the downbeats wherever they want them. I don't where he's putting them, though, sometimes, and he seems to know.

Steely Dan, Bodhisattva.

I have friends in a cover band who have struggled with Once in a Lifetime, because no one can agree where the "one" is. Same with Zep's "Black Dog" (which to be fair was designed to mess people up).

(xp) oh yeah, i don't doubt that hooker knows where his 1 is, i just think his style is super idiosyncratic, very possibly born of improvisation, and he adds or drop beats without appearing to worry about it, as if the 1 at any given moment is wherever he says it is. supposedly he was recorded solo in his early years because other musicians couldn't figure out how to accompany him.

Small Faces "Afterglow" intro always throws me

you mean the persistent quarter note part? because i definitely hear that on the downbeat. where do you hear the synth part starting?

e, e-d#, d#-a#, e, e-d#-d#

the first e is on the downbeat to my ears. i can't hear it any other way but i think i'm wrong!!

Zep's "Black Dog" (which to be fair was designed to mess people up)

the first time you try to play "black dog" is always a strange and fun moment.

Even weirder are Bonham's stick clicks, which allegedly were there to help everyone know where to come in. But they're inconsistent, and don't clear anything up.

Late to this party, but "Once in a Lifetime" absolutely has a bar of two in "Letting the..." and then the "DAYS go by" and "FLOW-ing underground" are on the one. They wouldn't keep the accented notes on the three would they? You see the same thing in "Hey Ya" during "...and this i KNOW for SURE."

They wouldn't keep the accented notes on the three would they?

Sure they would. "Days" and "FLOWing" are on 3 in their respective measures.

The trick with that one is, again, deciding where the one is. Bassists/drummers/vocalists might not agree.

I think years of singing choral music and living with the rubato inherent in that discipline, which is often necessary to both convey emotion and to allow the chorus time to breathe before a big phrase, has inured me to a lot of the rhythmic complexities identified on this thread.

Like Black Dog for example, I have zero problems finding the downbeat in that song; just listen to the drum and know that Plant's sections in the verse are in a freer tempo than the instruments and the instrumental interludes in the verses have three eighth note pickups at the beginning and you're golden.

Now that I read that back, I have an overwhelming urge to call myself a dick.

"Days" and "FLOWing" are on 3 in their respective measures.

I don't believe that's what the article says. There is no overall one, only ones in different spots for different players.

was clicking my fingers along to pointer sisters' sesame street "12", 2 year old son sat on lap and got lost.
which doesn't happen when i don't click my fingers.

I don't believe that's what the article says. There is no overall one, only ones in different spots for different players.

That's the way it was recorded but, when mixed down, it falls into a clear, easy-to-understand 4/4 that lines up across all of the components. I really don't hear how it can confuse any listener as to where the downbeat is no matter how many times I play it.

DJP otm all the way.

The note choices for 'DAYS go by' just don't make sense to me as starting on the 1, if you take out what you're thinking of as pickups.

That's the way it was recorded but, when mixed down, it falls into a clear, easy-to-understand 4/4 that lines up across all of the components. I really don't hear how it can confuse any listener as to where the downbeat is no matter how many times I play it.

yeah, this thread made me wonder so I listened to it attentively and I don't really hear the problem with the downbeat either.

DJP otm baffled you guys are still arguing about this

Listening to it now, the 1 is easy to follow by listening to the snare, but it discombobulates by starting the chorus on the 3 and going back to the verse on the 1, emphasising the disorientating nature of the moment of clarity I guess.

noooooooo

hahahahahahahaha Jordan

try this as a guide to where the phrase is -- the tom hit is always on the "&" of 4 (switches to every other bar in the chorus, but is always in the same place, leads into the 1).

can we talk about another song for awhile or something, jfc

the time signature in this one always gets me, even though I don't think it's hard to discern where the 1 is exactly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yxbOsUtYNQ

For years, I had problems parsing where the downbeat in "Think Fast" by Meat Beat Manifesto was until the second half of the first verse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkuKYKLJrX4

Now I hear it within the first few measures but that initial snare roll from the drum loop still throws me a little.

those both feel pretty natural to me, as James Brown-type displaced backbeat beats (i get it though).

here's one i have to really concentrate on to feel correctly until it becomes more evident later on. for me the danger is feel the kick drum on the upbeats, and the syncopated low tom part on the downbeats, but it has to be the reverse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmLKGemM6_8

ooh that's a good one

hmm, the randomer one seems natural and instinctive to me, since the basic loop has clear accents on the 2 and 4.

Even weirder are Bonham's stick clicks, which allegedly were there to help everyone know where to come in. But they're inconsistent, and don't clear anything up.

Yes, they make it murderously difficult to play along. However, that's probably because, per Jimmy Page, "We tried to eliminate most of them, but muting was much more difficult in those days than it is now."

There are some really confusing turnarounds in the chorus to Locomotive by GNR:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=locamotive+guns+roses

The combination of drum films and Axl singing over the measure is really weird. The first time it happens is around 2:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOH2mE9UFSI

"shoki" is the only song that came to mind for me

Japan's cover of 'Ain't That Peculiar' has me searching for the one more times than a character in George Clinton's funk universe.

Like Black Dog for example, I have zero problems finding the downbeat in that song; just listen to the drum and know that Plant's sections in the verse are in a freer tempo than the instruments and the instrumental interludes in the verses have three eighth note pickups at the beginning and you're golden.

Come on, the rubato in the a capella vocal parts isn't what makes this hard to count. I'm not even sure that transcription really gets at how the metre is accented. The drums and guitar and both playing eighths on the first five eighth notes. Snare hits (and agogic accents in the guitar line) appear on the C on beat 2 of m. 18 (by his transcription) and the C on beat 3 of m. 19, with a bass drum hit on the first beat of the m. 19. It almost feels like a bar of 5.

Apparently Charlie Watts was fooled about where the downbeat was here -- he doesn't get on track until the second verse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSGk3LeM56E

when mixed down, it falls into a clear, easy-to-understand 4/4

You asserted this before, but I don't know where you're getting the information. The article clearly states that the song was recorded with some players being told the one was in one place and others being told it was in a different place. It says nothing about this being altered in the mix.

The note choices for 'DAYS go by' just don't make sense to me as starting on the 1

Because it's a non-chord tone? I think it's just a neighbor tone going from scale degree one to three.

There's also an agogic accent on that note.

If you're referencing that wiki, that was just for the construction of the groove, and the vocal melody was written on top of it later on.

To my ears it would be both overly complex/awkward and kinda square if that's where the 1 was. It just makes perfect sense as the 3.

I don't agree. Hearing "Days" on the three means the vocal melody starts on the and of one and has continuous agogic accents on the three. Hearing "Days" on the one means there's a beat and a half pickup.

that was just for the construction of the groove, and the vocal melody was written on top of it later on.

A groove that's polyrhythmic and for which the singer undoubtedly chose one or the two possible downbeats.