"Baby It's Cold Outside" -- Holiday Song? Rapey?

there's an everydayfeminism thinkpiece just begging to be written about how this song is surprisingly sex-positive by jazz age standards and how it's patronizing to assume that the woman is acting under coercion when she makes the empowering choice to define her sexuality on her own terms by accepting the man's advances in spite of conventional morality and received wisdom advising her to the contrary.

"4 Reasons Why 'Baby It's Cold Outside' Isn't As Rapey As You Think"

I think the fact that the girl at the end cheerfully says "baby it's cold outside," (i.e. "ok, I'll stay,") makes it pretty obvious that the song is not "rapey," not to mention that most of her protests are like "what will the neighbors think" kind of stuff. Even having to read it this closely to make the point makes me die inside a little.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Tuesday, December 24, 2013 12:31 PM (two years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ahead of his time

can we drop the use of the word "rapey"? It's annoying as hell.

resolution to ban the word rapey and michael buble

all in favor

https://www.sysoon.com/deceased/theodore-rapey-37

We haven't had that spirit here since 1984.

"rapish" more grammatically correct

there's an everydayfeminism thinkpiece just begging to be written about how this song is surprisingly sex-positive by jazz age standards and how it's patronizing to assume that the woman is acting under coercion when she makes the empowering choice to define her sexuality on her own terms by accepting the man's advances in spite of conventional morality and received wisdom advising her to the contrary.

I think it was linked earlier on the thread: http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/

oh, Christ

NPR took notice

gonna do this every year huh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiCstfC9FfM

http://bigbutterandeggman.tumblr.com/post/154013148291/teachingwithcoffee-its-time-to-bring-an-end-to

Still not a Christmas song, tho.

I like that explanation, but what are some other examples of this stock joke? I asked this upthread and nothing specific came up.

I can think of one possible example in The Rules of the Game (Christine: "I drank way too much; I don't know what I'm doing," right before going off with St. Aubin).

In The Rules of the Game is every exception. It is life itself.

trans-era humorlessness is a helluva drug

(i mean "across eras" there, to be clear)

Post flagged.

what're those New Puritan membership dues?

Now I want a Neil Young Trans-era Baby It's Cold Outside.

https://images.eil.com/large_image/NEIL_YOUNG_TRANS%2B-%2BQUIEX%2BII-77882.jpg

This is happening: https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/canadian-radio-stations-baby-it-s-cold-outside-1.4931867

I'm cool with this being a poll/discussion on a message board; less so with this kind of action. I just don't see how anyone who argues strongly on one side or the other of this issue is going to come out looking good.

I don't think I have ever heard this song

I don't know if the point is raised on this long thread; but I think it's interesting that in the original movie, Neptune's Daughter, the song is performed twice -- first, by Esther Williams and Ricardo Montalbán (with the familiar dynamic); and then again later, in a "role-reversal" twist, in which Betty Garrett is trying to convince Red Skelton to let her stay. Both versions are in this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MFJ7ie_yGU

I hated this song before it wasn't okay to hate it. Except my hatred is real, because I literally don't care if he's going to take advantage of her. I just fucking hate this heinous piece of aural dreck.

I don't think I have ever heard this song

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, December 4, 2018 2:25 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i always think this, but i have, it’s just incredibly unmemorable

It's also interesting (to me) that the song was recorded & released eight times in 1949 alone (the year the film came out), producing multiple hit records; including by heavy hitters like Ella Fitzgerald, Dinah Shore, etc.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby,_It%27s_Cold_Outside#1949_recordings

That's what I miss about old pop music: the covers of contemporary songs. Don't like the Beatles version of 'Hey Jude'? More of an r+b fan?

I got you.

I'm being deadly seriously when I say that I'd love to hear Julia Holter's take on something like, I don't know. . . 'Call Me Maybe'. I guess publishing isn't what it used to be, in this regard.

I only ever became conscious of this songs existence via hearing the Wes Montgomery & Jimmy Smith version on a Wes Montgomery compilation in 2006. It just coincidentally happened to be around Christmas time.

How do you avoid this song? I hear it all the time in public this time of year.

Sorry, I'm finding the Wikipedia entry fascinating:

During the 1940s, when Hollywood celebrities attended parties, they were expected to perform. In 1944, Frank Loesser wrote "Baby, It's Cold Outside" for his wife, Lynn Garland, and himself to sing at a housewarming party in New York City at the Navarro Hotel. They sang the song to indicate to guests that it was time to leave. Loesser often introduced himself as the "evil of two Loessers" because of the role he played in the song.

Garland wrote that after the first performance, "We become instant parlor room stars. We got invited to all the best parties for years on the basis of 'Baby.' It was our ticket to caviar and truffles. Parties were built around our being the closing act." In 1948, after years of performing the song, Loesser sold it to MGM for the 1949 romantic comedy Neptune's Daughter. Garland was furious, and wrote, "I felt as betrayed as if I'd caught him in bed with another woman."

I mean I hear it more often now, but it's one of those standards that would have flown by if I was not paying attention.

It's like how it was only a few years ago I was made aware of the Christmas song "Marshmallow World".

xp They actually did divorce! (though not until 1957)

Loesser also wrote, among other things, the songs from Guys and Dolls ("Luck Be a Lady Tonight," "A Bushel and a Peck," etc.).

I likely would've never known this song if it wasnt for the creepy shower scene from elf

I just don't see how anyone who argues strongly on one side or the other of this issue is going to come out looking good.

A conundrum that could've so easily been avoided if people had only realized the whole time that there's nothing remotely holiday-ish about this song.

xp. I've heard it twice in public thus far this "holiday season"

I just don't see how anyone who argues strongly on one side or the other of this issue is going to come out looking good.

A conundrum that could've so easily been avoided if people had only realized the whole time that there's nothing remotely holiday-ish about this song.

― I Never Promised You A Hose Harden (Eric H.), Tuesday, December 4, 2018 2:43 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is a weird horse to flog. jingle bells has nothing to do with christmas but here we are

One side won’t look good bc they’re denying obvious reality and the other bc in 2018 an argument that something isn’t rapey will always be suspect as general rape apologetics.

Another example of a "holiday standard" that has nothing to do w/Xmas, just wintry timez -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27ve_Got_My_Love_to_Keep_Me_Warm

i quite like Jen Kirkman’s thread on this from the other day - which basically reinforces kate78’s post wayyyyy upthread that this song is a foreplay song
(kirkman links to the Persephone piece too)

I’m so tired of this. The song seems odd now not cuz it’s about coercing sex but about a woman who knows her reputation is ruined if she stays. “Say what’s in this drink” is an old movie line from the 30’s that means “I’m telling the truth.” She wanted to get down and stay over. https://t.co/3TaQbUSoB1

— JEN KIRKMAN (@JenKirkman) December 1, 2018

Song may not be rapey, but it's nonetheless an example of that old highly gender-specific trope, whereby man tries to persuade woman to do something she has doubts about, for whatever reasons. The reasons here obviously sound very old fashioned to our ears, but it's still a case of a no could mean a yes if only I can talk her round.

It's probably the Loesser of two evils, anyway

I was in two minds, until GMB played th song from the film, what Piers called "a nice happy Christmas movie".

Basically, bloke invades woman's personal space, chases her around the room only slightly slower than Benny Hill, shuts curtains, crams next to her on a seat she sits on, etc. All this after she's already said "The Answer Is No".

The staging/performance in the movie is (surprisingly) mediocre... even the sets are cheap. This was clearly not a top-shelf MGM production.

That said, the song predated the movie and became popular thanks to dozens of recordings afterward (as discussed above); the movie is by no means the “original/definitive” interpretation. No one knows the film, anyway.

Have come around to think the song is def not rapey, but I think the same cultural context that made the song not rapey (women having to coyly put up a front of not wanting to be "easy") provided cover for a lot of actual rape, so it's good we've moved beyond that.

i continue to take more issue with the word "rapey"

I apologize for using it. I would not object to a mod replacing it with something more appropriate.

“Say what’s in this drink” is an old movie line from the 30’s that means “I’m telling the truth.”

I'd still be curious to hear some backup for this.

I apologize for using it. I would not object to a mod replacing it with something more appropriate.

― I Never Promised You A Hose Harden (Eric H.), Wednesday, December 5, 2018 9:40 AM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it was 2013, it was all anybody was saying about "blurred lines" too. i take more issue with it being used now