― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 28 March 2003 22:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
I can think, off the top of my head, of two recent posts by white, female IL* members that contradict this statement.
A real answer to N.'s topic question would require an essay, if not a book, but here are my thoughts on one facet of the topic -- and let me emphasize the "one facet" in that, as I think there's a whole lot to this issue:
We live in a culture in which, over the last 100-150 years, there has been -- at least in mainstream media discourse -- a significant shift away from what might be called "community-oriented" values. Like most things in history, it could be argued that this shift both represents a reaction against a genuinely problematic status quo, and constitutes an overreaction to it (who was it that said, quite astutely, that every new development in philosophy tends to be an overcompensation for the previous one?). The fallout from this is extensive and far beyond my scope or ability to describe, but some aspects are obvious (greater respect for personal liberties, for instance, or a tendency towards the atomization of human relationships), some less so (anti-intellectualism, materialism, the alienation of most Westerners from their cultural history in the belief that it "all leads to Auschwitz").
In any event, such an environment tends to afford maximal prestige to those who take on -- or, and this is key, are perceived as taking on -- the role of the "badass". I don't really have time to go into the details of this figure, but here's an effective synopsis: "The badass is someone who cultivates an image of being supremely wicked, mean and violent [and] seeks to use violence (and related patterns) in a quintessentially irrational fashion...Yet the badass does have a deeper purpose: He gains considerable power over other people by getting them to perceive him as irrationally violent. A badass is recognized as capable of turning wildly, senselessly violent for no apparent or predictable reason, and so everyone else has to be extra careful around him." (That's from a book by Roy Baumeister.)
I trust I don't need to laboriously lay out the argument I'm making here: that mainstream media culture consistently chooses to propagate images of the badass, that it strongly implies that such men (and they are just about always portrayed as male) are to be feared and respected (i.e. are powerful), and that it strongly suggests that most badasses come from economic or racial crucibles that form them into hardened, dangerous men. This lens, as it were, has been one through which men of many ethnicities and cultures have been depicted -- the Irish and the Italians come to mind -- and it is, obviously, a lens frequently chosen, by a wide range of sources (anyone from hiphop MCs to the nightly news), through which to depict the lives of young, black men. (I assume I don't need to talk about how toxic and damaging this is.)
To most people, the badass is both deeply frightening and oddly fascinating, and when you combine that with the prejudice already felt by many about Africans and African-Americans, you get an image that to many people is quite potent, for it simultaneously represents the feared Evil Other and a vicarious outlet for the destructive impulses of one's "negative self". When people are confronted with someone (or images of many, archetypal someones) that powerful and pervasive, there are a few typical reactions: hatred, chronic anxiety (or, more optimistically, the insight that the image is a fabricated archetype, which empowers one to begin to cast it aside). But there's always going to be a significant portion of those people who choose to identify with the aggressor, in part because that eases their anxiety and permits them the belief that they will be somehow spared. (The corollary to this is, naturally, to devalue the victims of the aggressor; by rationalizing their fate, and ascribing it to some flaw or failure on their parts, a person convinces himself or herself that he/she is "not like them", and is, in fact, superior.)
This behavior manifests itself with far greater specificity when you're dealing with the dynamic between individuals (and if you doubt that, or any of this, try working in an office with a powerful, dysfunctional boss, someone who punishes indiscriminately and irrationally, and you'll see these behaviors in action). But when you're dealing with individuals for whom the anxiety-provoking figure is a nonspecific archetype, then -- since it's obviously impossible to specifically negotiate with someone who isn't present -- the negotiation happens in generalities: people from outside the milieu of the figure begin to identify with it, and despite the fact that they come from a totally different culture (or race, or socioeconomic background), begin to adopt the mannerisms and behavior of the archetype, or at least their own mythologized version of it. And naturally, they're inclined to devalue their own antecedents, in part as a way of hiding them, in part because they've adopted a value-system of power and aggression in which those, often community- and childhood-oriented, antecedents are considered valueless or worse.
The figure of the badass has piggybacked onto Italian culture with some success, and a bit with the Irish though not nearly as successfully (in the States at least). But the nearly unprecedented, worldwide, multi-wave explosion of African-American culture (especially music) has, I think, been a major force behind the massive propagation of this stereotyping of young black men. Certainly, it's been something that many black artists have been more than willing to exploit -- it's all over early blues -- and, in turn, artists from other cultures have been more than willing to co-opt it for themselves. But in any event, the dominance of black musical culture in the latter part of the 20th Century, and in the 21st so far, has meant (obviously in conjunction with racism and race relations, media sensationalism) that the dominant image of the badass has been African-American, and that the badass (whether African-American or not) has been celebrated (while at the same time feared) to an extent seldom, if ever, seen in any culture before.
And rather than drag this argument to the conclusion that I assume should be obvious by now -- or take the time to stitch in any of the other threads that need to be in here, like the fetishization of the Other and so forth -- I'll instead recount a conversation between three jazz students that a friend of mine overheard a couple years ago -- or what I can reconstruct of it (thirdhand!), anyway:
1) White male: ...and yeah, but I was like, that shit was so white, you know?2) White male #2: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean --3) Black male (slightly older): No, no, don't say that, don't say that.1) and 2) What?3) Man, I wish you hadn't said that.1) What?3) About being "white". When you say that, it makes me think, you know...well, to be honest, it makes me think that, when you look at me, you see a "black man", rather than me, as a person. I mean, I know what you meant, I'm not angry or anything...1) or 2) Oh, listen, I'm sorry --3) No, no, just, you know, have some respect. Not just for me, but for yourselves. I mean, you're white, and I'm black, and we're going to stay that way, right? But so what? I'm not embarrassed by my color, so why should you be, or talk about it like it's something bad? What matters is what you have to say, as a musician and as a person.
― Phil (phil), Friday, 28 March 2003 23:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
Nabisco I therefore conclude that you've successfully manufactured a very stupid strawman.
You will have a hard time convincing me that there's not at least a strong undercurrent of white vs. black in a statement like this, referring to "pasty losers" vs. "survivors" (as though there aren't SHITLOADS of black foax who, like, live in their parents' basement until they're 29, making bad beats!).
To me Indie vs Hip Hop is pasty losers who spend too much time on line vs survivors who know what the real world is. Guess who I'll take. -- That Girl (d**********@yahoo.com), March 27th, 2003 1:43 AM. (thatgirl)
― Phil (phil), Friday, 28 March 2003 23:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
How often does this happen outside of music? I think the generally accepted idea that black music is more innovative and exciting then white music has a something to do with it.
― bnw (bnw), Saturday, 29 March 2003 00:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
― sammy, Saturday, 29 March 2003 01:44 (twenty-one years ago) link
Who cares? Why do black people talk back to the screen at movies?
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 29 March 2003 01:57 (twenty-one years ago) link
― James Blount (James Blount), Saturday, 29 March 2003 02:03 (twenty-one years ago) link
In other words "white" is a fine term becuz it means something real and pretending it doesn't is like pretending that "black" means nothing and racism vanished with the civil rights movement.
It's not being white so much as *acting* in a "white" way which of course is something determined by context etc. Blackpeopleloveus.com to thread.
Also That Girl's comment makes plenty of sense when you consider that hip-hop songs are *about* surving and indie songs are *about* being losers v. often -- so which do you want to identify more with? On the other hand compare/contrast another typically "black" genre like classic jazz and fewer people will say its about "surviving" and then you can be like jazz v. buttrock fite and get an answer like "one is cerebral wanking and the other is about having a good time -- hmm which do i pick?"
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 29 March 2003 02:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 29 March 2003 02:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
How many media references to 50 Cent are about his record as opposed to his life and history and sales and pronouncements? The ratio is poor, which really means that everyone is reviewing, basically, his "blackness." Which is exactly what he's trading in...as is Eminem, really, too--8 Mile is an entire treatise on Rabbit's/Eminem's black-credentials, and the reason he's the coolest guy in America has at least something to do with the fact that he is a successful Euro-American in a field that is dominated by African-Americans (cue Presley, G.Michael's solo career, the Dallas Mavericks)--and what we are buying, too.
But we want to be 'better' than that, less sucked-in, more objective, harder-edged than the other suckers out there--so we want to question the critical status quo that will intensely question/analyze/mention most of the tracks on the Malkmus record, but basically ignore Killer Mike's and Lil Kim's and Bryan McKnight's music in favor of recounting their history or their famous friends or their fashion sense. So we throw around terms like 'white' with impunity because it's "not supposed to be done". Isn't that something like that?
Cynical, clear-eyed Neudonym asks: Don't we do it because we kind of like to be assholes?
― Neudonym, Saturday, 29 March 2003 12:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
And I'm sure somebody's going to say 'yeah well not all big bands were black, look at Ellington he was successful yada yada' but I think it's pretty much undeniable that a lot of black music in the 20th century was introduced to a wider audience in a form that was often quite distanced from the idiom it was supposed to represent.
As for why we still do it, I'm going to go with force of habit.
― Dave M. (rotten03), Saturday, 29 March 2003 13:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
― matt riedl (veal), Saturday, 29 March 2003 14:53 (twenty-one years ago) link
I am white, but not the 'white' of the thread title.
I never think of myself as white though, or black, or any other colour.
I don't think I'm particularly similar to all the other people who have approximately the same skin colour as me.
I'd prefer to align myself with, say, all the other music lovers, or all those people who prefer cats to dogs. At least those groupings would tell you something about the way I think/feel/behave/value.
― mei (mei), Saturday, 29 March 2003 15:06 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nickn (nickn), Sunday, 30 March 2003 04:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 3 July 2003 17:13 (twenty years ago) link
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 3 July 2003 18:16 (twenty years ago) link
― cheese, Monday, 1 September 2003 10:12 (twenty years ago) link
― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 1 September 2003 10:55 (twenty years ago) link
― Shmuel Marmorstein (shmuel), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 00:13 (twenty years ago) link
― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 01:35 (twenty years ago) link
Some may look at me and think, "Ok, she's obviously got some street cred to her. She could blend in with a hip-hop and R&B loving crowd and wouldn't look totally out of place at a rap show." But you know what? I would feel utterly and completely lost in those sorts of places. I have no inner street cred to speak of. The homeys in the ghetto wouldn't exactly be down with me listening to Scritti Politti. I'm so out of this particular circle that I don't even know if that last sentence makes me sound like an even "whiter" person. I am essentially the Steve Martin character in the movie Bringing Down the House.
Point being, it could very well be possible to consider oneself unhip and totally not down with "it" (whatever "it" is) no matter what one's outward appearances may be. So if you have porcelain white skin and fine facial features, don't think that automatically makes you unhip or not "clued in" to the ways of the street, because I know for damn sure my OWN olive skin and big lips and Roman nose could not even BEGIN to give me an instant ticket to the World of the Ethnic Cool.
― Just Deanna (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 02:27 (twenty years ago) link
I get told I´m a fake Puertorican all the time, just ´cuz I´m white.
― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 02:38 (twenty years ago) link
― gabbo giftington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 03:17 (twenty years ago) link
― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 03:19 (twenty years ago) link
― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 03:25 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:41 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 14:32 (twenty years ago) link
― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 14:43 (twenty years ago) link
I think we are at at the ass-end of identity politcs in this country.
― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 19:17 (twenty years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 19:41 (twenty years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 19:58 (twenty years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 20:00 (twenty years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 20:15 (twenty years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 20:20 (twenty years ago) link
It is six years later, we have a black president in the USA (since this thread is US-oriented). Do you think we have made significant progress in that time WRT stereotypes about music consumers?
― u s steel, Monday, 30 March 2009 16:18 (fifteen years ago) link
http://thehurstreview.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/fleet-foxes-lp.jpg
― tenderhoos (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, 30 March 2009 16:19 (fifteen years ago) link
Is this "too white" thing just about bad marketing and careless reporting?
― u s steel, Monday, 30 March 2009 16:22 (fifteen years ago) link
oh good
― no one is ever ready for the STAKK ATTAKK (jjjusten), Monday, 30 March 2009 16:29 (fifteen years ago) link
bacon
― Mr. Que, Monday, 30 March 2009 16:32 (fifteen years ago) link
Are you asking whether black people have started going to Roots shows?
― Comprehensive Nuclear Suggest-Ban Treaty (Hurting 2), Monday, 30 March 2009 16:36 (fifteen years ago) link
The truth about this is ineffable, yet you effers keep effing.
― M.V., Monday, 30 March 2009 16:36 (fifteen years ago) link
i was one of those people in high school & some of college who described things, pejoratively, as 'white' (i had a radio show called 'renegades of funk' LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL)... anyway my self-loathing cycle arrived and i did this complete 180 a few years ago and now privilege and prize music that i once would have disparagingly called 'white' (i.e. dadrock, balearic, & in particular the intersection btw the two) (im not sure that my reason for doing this reversal is, um, 'racial' in nature; i mean, i wasnt checking out hall & oates instead of mos def because i had gone stormfront--though i think there was a certain kind of racial discomfort i began to feel abt my position w/r/t rap music & maybe my shift toward the dadrockearic axis was a desire to return to a less fraught place)
anyway i now listen to i guess "white boy" music (incl. even some indie bands!!!!!! who are of course the 'whitest' of the 'white') but id never think of calling it 'white' approvingly. not really shocking, obviously, since its sort of troubling to be going around using 'white' as a compliment. i guess i just wanted to share.
― rip dom passantino 3/5/09 never forget (max), Monday, 30 March 2009 16:38 (fifteen years ago) link
Results 1 - 10 of about 518,000 for "too white".
― velko, Monday, 30 March 2009 16:39 (fifteen years ago) link
Results 1 - 10 of about 3,020,000 for "bottle opener".
― no one is ever ready for the STAKK ATTAKK (jjjusten), Monday, 30 March 2009 16:42 (fifteen years ago) link
i guess i only use "white" to describe music or a performance that is going for a style rooted in black or latin culture, but missing the mark (no matter the ethnicity of the performers).
― meat of beef (Jordan), Monday, 30 March 2009 16:43 (fifteen years ago) link
xxxpost hall & oates are pretty funky white boys tho
― if you like it then you shoulda put a donk on it (bernard snowy), Monday, 30 March 2009 16:47 (fifteen years ago) link
i'm white btwhttp://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/original/15_sasha_lgl.jpg
― velko, Monday, 30 March 2009 16:48 (fifteen years ago) link