Big Star

But I was thinking about the verse, not necessarily the chorus.

Just listened to "The Ballad of El Goodo" and for a split second I thought I could hear a backing vocal by Rasa Davies.

Don't know if "El Goodo" is structured like a Byrds tune, myself, but I hear the general resemblance. I love "5D," but isn't it in 3/4 time? Dunno. Perhaps it was the stateliness of "Way Out West," for example, that reminded critics of the Byrds. "She Don't Care About Time," maybe? Parsons' "100 Years"? Critics also compared them to the Who, and maybe they meant Who Sell Out? "Our Love Was, Is"?
Alex used to do "5D"--I remember him covering it in a show I saw around 1991. And come to think of it, maybe he sang in those days just a bit like David Crosby? "Everybody's Been Burned"? "Psychodrama City"?

could totally see a cover of "Everybody's Been Burned" fitting right in on 3rd/Sister Lovers

Yeah, "5D!" Except when I play it, it's like, well, not really! It's in a different key and a different meter (xp) and has a different chord progression and a different melodic countour...

There's something in the harmony in the "El Goodo" chorus, I think.

Yeah, "5D" is in 3/4. I wasn't thinking the two songs sounded exactly the same, just that the way the lyrics and vocals flow seems somewhat similar.

I wish I could write something on Big Star's harmonic language, it's distinctive within rock. I get what James means about something similar to "5D," sure. Fwiw, Radio City is unique in that its first cut lays out the strategy for the rest of the songs-chromaticism, major six chords, augmented and diminished chords. The first part of "Daisy Glaze" echoes "Oh My Soul"'s chord progression. "Life Is White" also echoes "O My Soul" in the brilliant little piano part in the middle.

I think the general similarity between those two songs is that the melody on the verse is relatively static, it doesn't move around that much, it is kind of the audio equivalent of a cartoon character marching through a loop of the same desert background, so that the contrast when the melody rises and the harmonies kick in on the chorus is extra exciting. I mean maybe there is a little more melody than a Rex Harrison Sprechgesang but not too much more.

Be very interested to read this Big Star harmonic language piece you wish you could write. I never tried to figure out any of their songs but "September Gurls," which is probably the easiest one. I mean I knew somebody who couldn't figure out the intro but maybe they didn't really try.

xpost: re xgau on Dudes: maybe because he liked the Raspberries? Or a big cheerful lip-fart to other peoples' reactions?
I don't get the "lovely pre-Pepper's feel", def not the Zombies or their Rod Argent, though maybe his early 70s band (Argent)? Anyway this is unmistakably early 70s, and vocals fairly enough share though maybe not add to the charming cheese of a catchy polyester bellbottom band whose guitars know how to dance, also rock, at least on "Rock N Roll Debutante". "My Mind's On You" is a suave prom ballad, vocals edging closer to Steven Tyler than James DeYoung---*just* close enough, every time, but keeping the suspense in there. Closing title track is like good Mott & Bowie, although this may have seemed superfluous in '75, when the originals were so much with us.
So help-themselves eclectic that they even brush by power-pop ballads too, just occasionally (no sorry or starry eyes that I noticed, but the humor and calm self-confidence and sometimes somewhat formal, greeting-card serenades fit).

vocals fairly *soon* share, that is

The guitars dance a lot more than they "rock", in the usual early 70s sense, though later on Nile Rodgers reminded us that such a distinction could be bullshit.

el goodo reminded me of the byrds from the first time i heard it

regarding the beatles influence, it makes more sense if one factors the later beatles stuff into the equation too. moments of the first two big star records kind of build off that harder rockin crunchier sound. to me, anyway.

I totally get that, James. Open your heart to the whole universe/ain't no one going to turn me 'round. The bridge to "El Goodo," isn't that brilliant? "If we can"--guitar lick--"just hold on." That's some great writing.

Yeah, Christgau saying the Dudes album was a Zombies "tribute" is a bit much. But "Deeper and Deeper" I think does come close to Colin Blunstone and the Zombies, in the sense that it's a modified, callow, soul ballad. Prolly the best song on the record.

Okay just listened to a few Grifters songs since they were mentioned up thread and on the one that just came on, "Last Man Alive," it totally sounds like the guy is doing a Jonathan RIchman imitation. Now he sounds completely different. Oh wait, this is a different artist now called Grifter, the same way there is Artful Dodger and The Artful Dodger.

And that Grifters track came from the excellent Oxford American Southern Music CD. That's how I got to Memphis.

"One thing I know for sure now..." check this out, James: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8yMgaKD8n0

Sure, will do thanks.

Critics also compared them to the Who, and maybe they meant /Who Sell Out/? "Our Love Was, Is"?

I'm thinking more "I Can't Reach You."

Speaking of "El Goodo" for instance, says here that Big Star were influenced by and even er sourced "specific riffs" from the acoustic guitar tracks of Gimmer Nicholson, whose The Christopher Idylls was finally resurrected on vinyl this year by Light In The Attic---excerpts, along w ones by Cargoe and The Hot Dogs, whose Say What You Mean I'm listening to right now:
https://vinylwitness.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/thank-you-friends-the-memphis-pop-scene-part-one/

Okay, just finished first YouTube listen to Say What You Mean, by the Hot Dogs: Terry Manning producing and playing lead guitar, I Am The Cosmos drummer Richard Rosebrough among the drummers here, Cargoe's harmonies sometimes assisting Bill Rennie's lead singing & bass, Greg Reding's keys, guitar and vocals, in a tunefully strong, texture-flexing and sufficiently rocking (to rowdy!) endeavor: early Wet Willie (or early solo Andy Fairweather-Low, maybe pre-Fillmore-boogied-out Humble Pie) come to mind, but--considering even some light Latiny touches to the roll, in the second track---overall it might be most like Stephen Stills' s/t solo debut---"Love The One You're With" etc---without, you know, Stephen Stills. Yay. Although he might as well be on a couple of lugubrious,back-to-back Side 2 ballads--but they perk up again after that, even getting to a rowdy closer.
LP posted here--if you can't see it, check YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmkN_tqN8m0

Another blog called it "folk-country-silk-rock": the "silk" could be the para-power-pop appeal, yeah.

hey that's pretty good, never heard of it before thx for the heads up!

The Gimmer Nicholson album was first reissued in 1994 on Terry Manning's Lucky 7 label. You can def hear how Bell copped his licks on the first Big Star album on "Watch the Sunrise." I picked up a copy of Marlin Greene's 1972 Elektra album Tiptoe Past the Dragon last year, and was struck by a track called "Masquerade Ball," whose acoustic guitar licks were a dead ringer for "Watch the Sunrise"'s.
The guitarist is Gimmer Nicholson, who appears on the record along with the Muscle Shoals Sound band, and the record seems to have been mixed or mastered in Memphis by Terry Manning. It's a cool record that has affinities to the work being done at Ardent, and it's a Christian-themed album. Wonder if Chris Bell heard it. (Marlin was a big Muscle Shoals sideman, played guitar on "When a Man Loves a Woman.")
Marlin's LP here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHjpeyaN0pQ
"Masquerade Ball" is the second track.

ha yeah, that is definitely very close to watch the sunrise.
the gimmer nicholson record is totally great, hadn't heard it before the reissue this year. kind of unbelievable it was recorded in the late 60s.

idk the big similarity to my ears is just that they're using the same guitar tuning (open D), which was all over the place in the 70s, and the same rhythm/tempo.

not really a rip per se

yeah, not a straight rip off, but i can see it sparking something for Bell (if he actually heard it).

Terry Manning on Gimmer Nicholson here.
Gimmer's record would've been the first Ardent album, apparently.

Cargoe's '73 s/t studio LP (there's also a previously unreleased contemporaneous live set on YouTube) is what I'd rec to someone seeking straight-up power pop fan, before (but not instead of) the Hot Dogs' Say What You Mean. But could also imagine it appealing to fans of Crosby-Stills-Nash debut, though I much prefer these robustly unassuming harmonies to CSN twee---and, like on Say..., we get Stills' lilt etc. without the actual Stills--also, no Manassas etc. congas here, the ripple is just part of the basic combo interplay. I do occasionally miss the relatively open-ended studio resources Manning brings to the Hot Dogs, but Cargoe has their own clever change-ups of tempo, solo alt. w harmony etc.---and, instead of getting to the lugubrious like Hot Dogs' Side 2 detour, Cargoe's just, "I been lookin' at somethin' lately, 'til it starts to bore me/just---feelin mighty pore-ly..." and ripple on, cos whattayagonnado, and that turns out to be the intro to a poppier version of prog suite moves. The closer alternates caffeinated restless with ascending speculations: "Wow---what'll happen next?"
...b-but---why the FUCK did I not hear this record on the radio in the 70s?
Duh: Ardent seems to have been as much of a creative oasis-to-commecial Death Valley as Lee Hazlewood Industries...
Oh well, here it is on the 'Tube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXNdfOfgS6U

Time for a new screenname, much as I liked the prior one

The Scruffs' "Wanna' Meet The Scruffs?": Ardent clients, Joe Hardy and John Fry himself listed as engineers, and the sound is immediately you-are-there rough-edged clarity, stronger than I expect from power pop, though it is generically that, with the only surprise being the way Stephen Burns seems to be copping to the arrested development subtext so easily inferred: he's the staring, hyperfocused romantic (he and they are on the verge of American garage-street-convenience-store-across-the-street-from-high-school, workin' and not workin' *punk*), and while tongue-in-cheek about it---"Tragedy" could be the theme song of a power pop Broadway equivalent of Grease; "Revenge" (with something like steel guitar, little bit!) goes, "Revenge is such a dirty word, but sheee is such a durty gurl", still, "Tommy Gun" takes it all over thee top: "Tommy Gun/Television show you one/Mama buy you bigger one/Tommy Gun/You get me off when I'm done." Then there's the screams bookending "I'm A Failure": "I'm only 23, and this is the end for me."

It's also very catchy, cute, 12 songs in 35 minutes and change. It's (emphatic enough to have prob done good on the late 70s Southern punk-frat circuit, yet unmistakably) power pop.
And it's also on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jSN-9IyIws

Need to catch up on all these Ardent rarities y'all are posting. Right now need to go to sleep but wondering if anyone else ever saw Dan Penn performance. I saw him twice and feel like I saw the talent but also saw that he didn't seem to really have the personality or a personality that goes with being a lead singer (cf. Twenty Feet From Stardom) More later but right now I need some shut-eye.

Okay still here for a few. Just downloaded the Skip James bio recommended by Edd upthread which looks really good. Love that there is an "Appendix:Idioms" section. Wondering if he has played through the transcription and verified its accuracy.

And wazzup what the AC version of "Sugar, Sugar" that sounds like Daddy Dewdrop backed by The Masked Marauders or, more likely, Mud Boy and The Neutrons?

Yeah, the Skip bio is one of a kind. Calt is hard on the blues audience. Far as I can remember, the transcriptions are accurate; can't recall if Calt did them or someone else did, but he was a stickler.

Saw Dan Penn couple times, hung out with him at his house once doing an interview. Very cagey guy with a lot going in internally. I agree that some of that doesn't come out in his performances, though he's a good singer. Last time I saw him he just played acoustic guitar and sang, and it was a bit underdeveloped in the sense that he's not a skillful enough guitarist to really flesh out the songs harmonically. "Nobody's Fool" was a good example of that. He put out a couple of records that are essentially demos, and they're kind of flat, as is his Do Right Man from the '90s which kinda didn't quite make it either. He's better as a producer--Bobby Purify's Better to Have It is nice, but even there, I kinda think he could be sort of baroque to no purpose, as on some of those Box Tops records, which tread the line between right and too much. For contrast, seek out Spooner Oldham's Pot Luck, which uses a small bscking band--spare and perhaps more satisfying as a record than Penn's stuff, though he doesn't sing any better.
"Sugar Sugar" points the way toward the Tiven stuff and Sherbert for sure. Such contempt. So when is someone going to reissue Moldy Goldies, now that Bob Johnston is gone? That's the only Nashville record I know that does anything like Chilton and Dickinson's parodistic stuff.

I saw that you got a nice acknowledgment in the Calt book.

One reads, one is led to believe, one would like to believe, that Dan Penn coached Alex or Alex was copying or emulating Dan to such an extent on The Box Tops recordings that Dan could have sung them just as well or better. I do believe a lot of that, that he did have considerable vocal chops, but also observe, as you did, that something was missing from him that is needed to be a compelling front man or solo performer. To mention Twenty Feet From Stardom again, it may be 20/20 hindsight but it was hard for me to imagine some of those singers really having a solo career except for maybe Merry Clayton.

Chilton singing "Sweet Cream Ladies" and "Neon Rainbow" is the work of a great singer, the singing works on different levels and the emotional commitment contrasts with some kind of reserve. Way beyond Dan Penn's abilities.

I miss Calt. He wasn't made for a poptimist era, that's for sure. The thing that Christgau and Marcus and some others miss is definitely musicological, though Christgau makes a valiant effort to understand something about the actual performances. Calt understood what he was listening to. Calt's big blind spot was probably the role of music as function, as something to dance to. He thought Skip James was superior because what he did was so abstracted from that, so pure. Christgau would oppose this split. Suppose the Dean could make a whole semester out of the separation between those two viewpoints.

I'd never read that Penn somehow provided the vocal template for teen Alex, who could add some of that elusively defined, uh, presence, starpower---however reluctantly, and AC's Box Tops phrasing, maybe just because of the tendency to hoarseness, or that's a sympton---does sometimes seem a tad forced---regurgitated, after being force-fed? "Ah just threw up in mah mouth a little"---although not nearly like Joe Cocker could, God forbid.
Yeah, Penn showed up a while back on some of those rootsy Public Radio shows, and always seemed very earnest, not really strained, but certainly not compelling.
And yeah, was gonna mention Spooner, as a cooler performer overall, with them keys, despite the imperfect voice, worth hearing on Light In The Attic's reissue of Pot Luck for sure, and he's turned up in a lot of interesting situations---was on that tour where Neil had CSNY singing "Let's Impeach The President", upsetting venerable Republican yuppies who paid for the best seats in Atlanta, for inst, and on vibes-laden tours with the Drive-By Truckers...

More recently, last year actually, I got unexpectedly diverted by (if you want another studio/tour ace, never to be mistaken for Elvis Caruso), a *Donnie Fritts* album, of all thangs---as mentioned on Rolling Country 2015 and more in blogged version of Nashville Scene ballot comments:
Spent most of my most recent lunch breaks w Oh My Goodness, by Donnie Fritts, mostly known as a songwriter and Kristofferson's long-time keyboard player (saw him with KK in Pat Garrett and Billy The Kid, so yeah goes back pretty far). Not a good place to soak up the good vocal influences, so maybe that's why it took me a few tracks to get into this. Not that he sounds like his boss, but at times just a bit like a sub-Levon, sub-Bobby Charles, even---he knows how to phrase, but thin pipes can make him a little bit too Mr. Pitiful. Still, musical smarts win out, and he gets aboard the studio bus, which never seems crowded, despite having members of the Swampers, Alabama Shakes, St. Paul And The Broken Bones, John Paul White, even John Prine at one point. It's actually an intimate, mostly late-night, sometimes slightly surreal setting, with Spooner Oldham's (and maybe Fritts', and even Will Oldham's) elegant keys, especially, suggesting early Randy Newman (or, you know, vice versa; Spooner's been around a long time too). "Lay It Down" is even a Sir Doug-worthy, anguished call (to self and other) for no-bullshit face-to-face. "Choo Choo Train" could even be a Newman---or Loaded-era VU---track. I think. It is a down home geezer album, but rec to those who like any of the musical associations mentioned, without being dependent on them.

Meant to say that "I'd never read that Penn provided the vocal template" etc, but (also) now that you mention it, sure seems to fit!

xp

Nice short film about Fritts, Undeniably Donnie - A Film About Donnie Fritts, The Alabama Leaning Man, is up on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ml8ueGngUo

KK, prine and a bunch of other folks.

The Fritts album is by far the best thing he ever did--Prone to Lean is a cult item from the '70s, and One Foot in the Groove, from 2008, is OK, especially "She's Got a Crush on Me," about an Inappropriate Love Object who bedevils Donnie when all he's trying to do is get thru rehab day by day. But neither had vocals to match the songs, and Oh My Goodness somehow or other catches his vocals the way they should've been, or maybe he just lucked into a moment of grace. Christgau gave it Honorable Mention.

Thanks for the Fritts tips! Hadn't heard of that film or those albums. Good visit w Spooner archived on American Songwriter, though you have to sign up to read it (for free).

xxpost I *like* the hoarseness of Box Tops Alex---the blue-jean jacket collar turned up in the back, he's the lawng-haired kid on the Greyhound, kinda stooped, and whatever he seems to be talking about, it's kinda urgent, something (else?) on his mind---took me a while to get used to his "real" voice for sure, and used wonder about what if he'd used his Box Tops sound in Big Star (as I'd assumed he did, while reading about them, way before actually hearing). Prob not limber enough for those songs---but sometimes I still wonder...

Also a good interview w Spooner can be streamed or downloaded from Alabama Arts radio show archives (along w some others relevant to Muscle Shoals etc)
http://www.arts.alabama.gov/actc/1/listserverindividual/20151124oldham.aspx

I talked to Spooner for about 15 minutes last year. Having seen his Deputy Dawg droopy demeanor on stage, I wondered if he'd be up for talking. He was as lucid as could be. His wife co-wrote "1980" on the Pot Luck album, and it was done in 1971 by Ronnie Milsap on a Dan Penn-Oldham production! What a strange song! As for Penn, also check out Clyde McPhatter's awesome 1969 version of Penn-Oldham's "Denver," one of their prime place-name psychodramas--Milsap also did it, but Milsap is a wooden dummy compared to McPhatter.
"Denver": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAz6OemPjSk
"Keep on Smiling (1980)": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuAMHlx72U0
"1980" (Oldham): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3zi8lIia8

Had the same thought about Big Star before hearing them as well, another surprise upon first listen. Wondered if he decides to sing high because
1) He lost his ability to sing low
2) That's what the kids are doing nowadays
3) Chris told him too
Perhaps there's an interesting discussion to be had about him and Dylan and their real and adopted voices.

Meant to say that "I'd never read that Penn provided the vocal template" etc, but (also) now that you mention it, sure seems to fit!

xp to don obv

Had the same thought about Big Star before hearing them as well, another surprise upon first listen. Wondered if he decides to sing high because

... it was closer to his natural voice?

Well, I think Alex spoke that way, in that ultra-refined, indolent Mississippi-Memphis accent (which does not occur west of the Tennessee River, no one in Middle or East Tennessee speaks that way). So I think he was coached to sing differently by Penn and the material dictated he adopt a voice that sounded soulful. His voice almost isn't there on some of Radio City, it's in the stratosphere and strains against its range throughout. Most of all, I think Alex was sly and disaffected, and the Box Tops allowed for none of that, though I think I hear him parodying the conventions in "Turn on a Dream," a later Box Tops tune. You can hear him going into Box Tops voice at the end of "Thank You John," ("it's gonna be all right") from Feudalist Tarts--a moment that startled me when I first heard it, as if he'd finally integrated some shit.l

/Had the same thought about Big Star before hearing them as well, another surprise upon first listen. Wondered if he decides to sing high because/

... it was closer to his natural voice?