Steely Dan: "Steely Dan's name has been popping up as a hip musical crush. Remember, this glossy bop-pop was the indifferent aristocracy to punk rock's stone-throwing in the late 70's. People fought

Dunno why I would listen to 'Babylon Sisters' when I could listen to the superior 'Home At Last' instead.

Taking sides: "WELL - THE" vs. "SHAKE - IT!"

voting shake it

I've never been convinced by anyone's antipathy towards latter-period SD beyond "it's not for me".

i think Aja is overrated but only in the sense that Royal Scam and Gaucho are underrated. all are good albums.

Pretzel's barely more than half an hour and yet there's stuff like 'East St Louis'....'Buzz' and 'With A Gun'...

Gaucho against that? Not a chance. Latter all the way.

(the great stuff on Pretzel is still great etc etc etc)

"through with buzz" is the first time steely dan used strings on a record, and the only other time they used strings at all was for "FM".

"FM" is the only instance of steely dan using don henley and glen frey as backup singers.

RIP glen, chugging all night for eternity

However, "production" doesn't always mean the way that a record sounds, it can be the methods involved in order to achieve the final result - and in this instance, as well-recorded as the record is, and as talented as the people involved are, the methods involved in gaining the final result led to a product that sounds incredibly lifeless. Hence, it is that rare thing - a record that sounds great but at the same time is badly produced

this is all received wisdom. groove on "time out of mind" is full of life

Pretzel's barely more than half an hour and yet there's stuff like 'East St Louis'....'Buzz' and 'With A Gun'...

Gaucho against that? Not a chance. Latter all the way.

― Master of Treacle, Sunday, August 14, 2016 2:37 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Totally otm. Pretzel is (by far?) my least favorite for all of the reasons you name.

I also never got deep into Katy Lied, but that one may still click for me, I dunno. I still return to it after all these years (sometimes involuntarily: my wife is a fairly recent Dan convert and is always playing that one in the car)

That said, I really, really love "Bad Sneakers."

Looking at this tracklist now, Pretzel has Rikki, Major Dude, and...that's about it. Maybe their only true stinker.

OK, you twisted my arm:

Royal Scam (personal choice--I acknowledge the objective superiority of Aja) > Aja > Can't Buy A Thrill > Gaucho > Countdown to Ecstasy > Katy Lied > Pretzel Logic

this is all received wisdom

Nope, it's a conclusion that isn't at all difficult to reach by doing something as simple as merely listening to the record.

Brad is arguing that "production" itself doesn't make a record lifeless any more than committing first takes to tape produces 'spontaneity.'

besides, I don't think the methods used to lay down Gaucho differ much from how they recorded PL.

I would argue that it does, for several reasons.

Gaucho is brilliant because of how "lifeless" it sounds. It's their only true concept album in a way. Probably my favorite for that reason alone although The Nightfly does the same thing even better.

And Pretzel Logic has Night By Night and Barrytown!

it's a conclusion that isn't at all difficult to reach by doing something as simple as merely listening to the record.

your post was a summary of every criticism levied against gaucho since it came out. if you had told me it was a composite of contemporaneous reviews of the record I wouldn't have blinked

formal precision in playing and recording =/= lifelessness

In that case then maybe, just maybe, the critics had a point.

There are numerous factors involved in the creation of a record, so many that it would take all day to list. Precise playing and engineering does not have to necessarily result in a lifeless product, but in the case of Gaucho it did, because of the way these methods were applied. It became simultaneously overcooked and sterile.

there's a glossiness to gaucho that feels a step beyond aja but i've never been convinced that it makes the record some alien object. "third world man" musically and lyrically depicts a kind of suicidal hangover and the glassiness is conveying part of the story

I think I've finally come around to thinking Gaucho is the best SD album. Babylon Sisters... that TJ verse...an exquisite song, where the "production " is key, the song is self-referential

Haven't spent time with Gaucho, but eventually came around on other Dan albums that I had heard were too slick, namely Aja and The Royal Scam, so I suppose I need to revisit this one as well.

whichever of the first 7 steely dan albums you consider the best, you're right.

lol

I think I used to love Gaucho a little more than I do now but it's still a much better record than Pretzel Logic, the only one of the initial 7 that feels rushed

also. Pretzel Logic = Village Recorders in LA, Gary Katz at the helm. Buncha LA session dudes kicking ass on all the tracks. Gaucho they tried to record in NY, and mostly did, but that was a super different environment than LA at the time, and they hadn't worked there in a long time. But as far as the application of the methods or whatever, it's the same people using their same skills - you can argue "the bigger budget meant they labored too long over the tracks" but that's a weird claim to make about a band who was never about spontaneity or the integrity of the live take or anything. their whole point was always using the environment of the studio to craft a meticulous track, which they pretty much perfect on Gaucho. I prefer Aja because I thin the songs are better.

it's weird cuz on the Aja episode of "classic albums" they talk about switching coasts every album... pretzel logic sounds sorta east coast cramped apartments to me whereas Gaucho is so evocative of driving through SoCal at night it's lysergic

maybe part of my lukewarm attitude towards Pretzel Logic has to do with how expansive and potential-laden Countdown To Ecstasy is.. and ecstasy has more badass skunk guitar solos

nah that's stupid, i wasn't even born yet when gaucho came out

But as far as the application of the methods or whatever, it's the same people using their same skills - you can argue "the bigger budget meant they labored too long over the tracks" but that's a weird claim to make about a band who was never about spontaneity or the integrity of the live take or anything. their whole point was always using the environment of the studio to craft a meticulous track, which they pretty much perfect on Gaucho.

Oh, I'd agree that Steely Dan were never really about spontaneity or the "integrity of the live take" - there seems to be some people here that have totally missed the point and seem to be getting the impression that this is some kind of "production" vs. "spontaneity" face-off. It fucking isn't.

I'll agree that the whole point of Steely Dan was about using the studio to make the best records they could possibly make, but they did not perfect their approach with Gaucho. They had already perfected their approach, and Gaucho was an attempt to go further than even this, resulting in a boring, tedious, overcooked and sterile record. They had already achieved the perfect balance of performance, production and songwriting elsewhere. Gaucho basically was an attempt to improve on something that couldn't be improved without having a detrimental effect on the final result, and it couldn't be more obvious from merely listening to the record.

Overrating Gaucho is one of the most storied of AJ ILX traditions, and has outlasted other now long forgotten tribal rituals like pretending Big & Rich weren't total ass

Haha all ilx traditions tho AJ ILX was my fav Backstreet Boy

guess i just over-enjoy gaucho, just over-feeling it.

and it couldn't be more obvious from merely listening to the record.

i mean it's a great album but it's kinda like led zep presence or tusk or something like that it's been "underrated" for so long it's kinda overrated i don't think it's nearly as good as aja for late SD and i still think they were best in the mid period peak of katy lied/royal scam

I don't really rate Presence either, bar two tracks on it. The two most obvious ones.

Have always preferred Gaucho to Aja personally

Mostly becuz Time Out of Mind

Uptown baby
Uptown baby

https://31.media.tumblr.com/24c0c74b9eb55102f768902a9f2c23ba/tumblr_inline_mnxgczQUWY1qz4rgp.gif

man that breakdown in Time Out of Mind is so not sterile & the changes on glamor profession are so intense...feel so weird about "simply listen to the music" approaches vis-a-vis steely dan. sd is a band whose music is better when you're thinking about it, analyzing it, breaking down the shit that's going on in it, and reflecting on how all the parts fit together. that's the point of the music they made, not just "does it swing." while gaucho doesn't scale aja's heights, that's because nothing ever could, which are the terms on which it doesn't succeed: it's an attempt to improve on a literally perfect album.

Gaucho is the hangover/paranoia after the high of Aja. It's an incredibly disturbing record. The songs are just as good imo. Although I find myself listening to the demos more these days. The "Glamour Profession" demo is extraordinary, with just a little less glitz (Fagen does the backing vox). And yeah, musically that song is probably the most interesting thing they ever did in terms of chord changes.

"Third World Man" is a devastating song, the one Steely Dan tune that destroys me.

feel so weird about "simply listen to the music" approaches vis-a-vis steely dan. sd is a band whose music is better when you're thinking about it, analyzing it, breaking down the shit that's going on in it, and reflecting on how all the parts fit together.

otm

I don't think 'Glamour Profession' is in any way "intense" and nor do I think Gaucho is in any way "disturbing" - it's not really an album that moves me in any sense, other than towards the stereo to switch it off and put on something a little more exciting.

I've only been listening to Steely Dan properly for the last couple of years but already I feel they're one of the hardest bands to pick a favourite album by and usually I find ranking/list making so easy. The original run of albums are so consistent and close in quality. I'd probably be able to put them in some kind of order but it would change tomorrow. I'm envious of people who are able to able to pick highlights.

Up until recently I would have said Gaucho was the weak link but after my brother (who is on this thread too) persuaded me to give it another go a few weeks back, I've really been falling in love with it. Today I could pick it as my favourite. It's been going down well with some of the other albums I've been obsessing over recently (Avalon, Kaputt, One World and Provision/Cupid & Psyche, Walk Across The Rooftops/Hats). I don't understand Turrican's criticisms at all but that seems to be a common theme on here recently.

Avalon has so much more life in it than Gaucho that it's not even funny. Now that's what I would call a perfect recording.

can't we all just agree that we aren't talking enough about The Skunk?

For example hear the raw urgency of Jeff "Skunk" Baxter's solo on "Change Of The Guard" and savor his tasteful utilization of the spinal vibrato.

And let's not forget his overdriven and explosive solo on "Boston Rag", presaging his career as a missile defense consultant

that solo on "Change of the Guard" is better though. dude was 24 yrs old ffs. I probably did a couple good things at 24, but not Skunk Baxter good