Indie Guilt: C/D

Yeah, Tom, I guess you're right. I just don't want to shut certain people off from discourse "just because" - but said people should at least be willing to raise questions honestly, and not resort to lame personal stabs and unfair accusations.

calling sleater kinney gods isn't an apology, it's a declaration riot war!

only stupid indie-people think everything has to be a fucking apology.

Man or Astroman is sorta like scientology with all that fake equipment with dials that jump around and shit. Those dials are hella cool.

I'm sorry. Er, wait, am I?

liking music that most people dont like is a pomo 'ironic' move like the fleeting belle and sebastian affectation of a few years ago

this is linear thing response thing is killing me...

man msp nobody whined about stuff like that back in the day -- ethan ([email protected]), May 29, 2002.

oh i agree. we were watching cartoons. i do remember whining about not getting a transformers toy...but then i realized how much radder go-bots were... only to now be completely embarrassed by both!

it doesn't "just trash indie", it includes my observation that LPs with the same number of cuts on both sides are all terrible -- mark s ([email protected]), May 29, 2002.

i WAS heavy handed when i said that...it did have some good points here and there and people made the good case that they've moved on, broadened their horizons, etc etc. so have i... but i still have little or no desire to purchase just about anything top 40 radio programming has to offer and that probably most of purchases, regardless of genre, are tiny re-issues or limited release crap that 3 folks in the basement of co-op put out with money they spare changed and gave blood to make. and some of that includes some rock, and some of it is still pretty worthwhile listening even stacked next to "legends and greats"...

so back to gygax's question...what's the haps? what makes indie a object to be deplored any more than anything?

m.

it doesnt sell enough records and most people dont listen to it

As with nearly every thread on ILM, the topic of this thread is ignored in favor of slagging either the question or the answer. If it was already addressed before, why not take a stab at answering a second time, correcting previous mistakes, asserting new theories? Obviously it's easier to just say there's nothing left to be said.

Indie guilt wouldn't exist if people weren't persecuted in some respect for their musical taste, whether by friends or strangers. If everyone found all music to be acceptable, regardless of its origin or popularity, then the people who carry indie guilt wouldn't feel compelled to obscure their tastes in public or private discussion. But the question was: Is indie guilt a classic or a dud? I think it's classic only because it will continue to be around as long as there exists music elitests who insist on belittling others' tastes in music. And in that regard, I suppose it's of anthropological/sociological interest to study people's actions and reactions in response to that guilt. But just the same, I wish it was a dud because people should be able to enjoy what they want without feeling the need to justify an interest in music to which others might object.

But if there was an Indie Guilt Meter, this place would have the needle slamming in the red all of the time.

I don't think anyone particularly deplores all indie. Rather, there's just an attitude that it isn't the center of the goddamn universe, and somehow this is a huge insult.

yeah man and homophobes are SECRETLY GAY THEMSELVES thats why they hate them!!!!

Ethan, I wouldn't say that most people don't like it; it's that most people haven't heard it. People like gygax want to say that IF they did, then they would like it; people like you want to say that they wouldn't.

I checked my watch, and in fact this thread spawned 57 replies in 8 seconds. That is what is known as "striking a nerve".

namdam have you stopped beating your wife?

If it was already addressed before, why not take a stab at answering a second time, correcting previous mistakes, asserting new theories?

Because the set-up of greenspun.com means that all previous topics remain 'live' - so it's just as easy to answer and take up points in that thread as this one.

Tom, I enjoyed your thoughts. You're no apologist, and as such, not the subject of the question (and you somewhat answered the "Indie Shame: C/D?" question in the earlier post). If anything, Indie was your gateway to music appreciation. Like a junkie's memories of smoking a little pot in the 7th grade.

Jess, I've deeply enjoyed Jess' writing on West Coast post- hardcore circa 1989-1993. There's no lack of respect here.

Clarke, the link was to illustrate my confusion. I'm confused by some of the strength and breadth of opinions here, but the most stringiest anti-indie backlash has been at the hands of those who were head deep in it during the mid-90s. Reminds me of my neighbor Bill Scott who signed up to for the war, got shipped to Vietnam, now despises the USA.

"Enough" records?!

whats the metal for ten times platinum?

Reminds me of my neighbor Bill Scott who signed up to for the war, got shipped to Vietnam, now despises the USA.

I don't find this difficult to wrap my head around.

OK now we're getting somewhere.

Mark S fave quote (one of them) - "We were promised the end of the world and we didn't get it", Charlotte Pressler.

"We were promised [XXXXXXX] and we didn't get it." - there is some [XXXXXXX] - might be different for everyone, might be similar - which indie promised and reneged on. The question is, what? I'm already late for meeting my friends tonight but I'll have a think about that.

hair metal

haha your neighbour is indie!!

Priceline commercials S-K did as Shatner-Kinney = best thing they evah did

(Because the only way to explain the fury you rightly detect, Gygax, is to think of it in terms of, well, love.)

america = destinys child/missy elliot, vietnam = tortoise, 'war' = ilm

Uh, Ethan, what's with the commercial landmark kick? I fully agree that indie can't pretend it's the center of the universe and all, but like Clarke said, what exactly is 'enough' records?

back when I did listen to indie all the time I was ashamed of it because I thought nobody would understand. Then my freshman year in college I meet this hipster gal from LA who's all about morrisey and also loves Palace and it freaks me out because Will Oldham was supposta be my special thing and I'm thinking "no way you like palace, you're not deep enough and morose enough and..." but of course I don't say it. I think that right about then I stopped listening to indie as much or feeling as ashamed when I did.

Ethan: "war" = nu-ilm.

the persecution complex is what keeps "indie" alive. If it's not jocks, it's squares. if it's not the scene getting too much attention, it's the scene not getting enough attention. if it's not too few kids at the shows, it's too many kids at the shows. it's the radio stations, it's the record labels, it's the sell-outs, it's commercials, it's drugs n booze ... something's always out to get poor widdle baby pisspants indie. now it's ILM. whinge whinge whinge. who cares?

group hug!! (except ethan => he is alien hiphop ew)

can you imagine destinys child being worried about selling too many records?? (this is why they are good)

what makes indie an object to be deplored any more than anything?

How else are the conforming non-conformists going to distance themselves from their identical brethern? In their quest to be different, they end up with the same clothing, the same piercings, the same tattoos, and the same convoluted take on individuality. So as a reaction to that, they need a common enemy, something to despise (because despising Top 40 would mean you care enough about Top 40 to acknowledge its existence when apathy is all the rage, punny enough).

The elitests deplore indie because it's what they know best, it's what they once enjoyed and now find unacceptable because it doesn't meet their fleeting, mercurial expectations. Instead of risking ridicule for being unlike their decidedly biased peers, they decide it's acceptable to trash the genre they once supported because it couldn't possibly be like it was in the good ol' days. But as they continue to disassociate themselves from the actual music in favor of critiquing the entire genre, their opinion becomes increasingly moot.

And anyone under the age of 20 shouldn't be talking about "the kids."

(Because the only way to explain the fury you rightly detect, Gygax, is to think of it in terms of, well, love.) -- Tom ([email protected]), May 29, 2002.

so, indie would be like your middle school girl or boy friend...while these other tastes are more developed relationships you had as you got older?

not really indie's lack of depth, but your understanding of music/love of a genre as you matured as a music lover?

if that's what you're going on, that's probably the best explanation offered so far, in my humble opinion.

m.

namdam: you prefer that only people over 40 talk about the kids?

that's ok with me, kids

you like indie music -> you probably have to support the idea that indie music is 'better' than the rest of that awful etc etc -> you do while realizing that this is probably not true -> this conflicts with indie's egalitarianism (as it is) and you make cursory efforts to show that you're not a closed-minded exclusionist by buying tribe called quest and soul jazz cds -> indie guilt!

Mark S,

I haven't had time to beat any wives lately because I've been so busy throwing away all of my records with the same number of songs on each side.

Cheers.

i think slayer are really good.

Tom, my hasty answer (to be elaborated on later) is that XXXXXXX (god I actually hit back on the browser and counted the Xs, what a lamo) is something like: complete fulfillment and satisfaction of your "musical needs" (a horrendous term, needs revising). When you first get into indie, it seems to give this to you - or, perhaps more appropriately, you let it give it to you. But later on, things change, and maybe indie just doesn't cut it for you anymore. I need to leave, too, but I will write more about this later. It deserves its own thread.

Sterling,

I prefer that the kids not talk about "the kids" because they are, in fact, "the kids." People over 40 can do whatever the hell they want.

Cheers.

b-but why did you buy them in the first place? can't you COUNT!?

i stand by my maximumrocknroll joke.

(that was to jel)

I like indie. I don't feel guilty. Maybe I'm lying to myself! I like pop music too. I don't really feel guilty about that either. I like old timey country music. I'm obviously compenstating here for liking indie and pop music guilt here.

Josh, that was brill. It does sort of feel like, when you get into indie, that you must be monogamous to it - well, this is the sort of music I like now, and this is *all* I like... and I'm happy with it, really, I am! But I'm not like a puritan or anything, I mean, my wife and I try a lot of crazy positions and buy a lot of dub!

THE ANSWER IS YES

an·he·do·ni·a
Pronunciation Key (ahn-hee-donh-dn-ah)
n.
The absence of pleasure or the ability to experience it.

All this hand-wringing about indie is funny. I buy a whack of records each year and some are indie and some are not. It doesn't even consciously enter into my mind what fuckin' label a record is on anymore. It's just not worth the brainwaves.

Jess that was so emo.