She was notoriously opportunistic, especially in the early days.:
Gerard Malanga: "I was a little pissed off at Patti because when the book came out she thanked Anita Pallenberg, who she didn't even know, Bobby Neuwith and somebody else."
"I went out of my way to twist a few arms and get her work known and then she just turns around and thanks Bobby Neuwith....What did she get out of Bobby Neuwith? Maybe she got to meet Dylan. I thought it was a bit of brownnosing."
― Half-baked profundities. Self-referential smirkiness (Bob Six), Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:40 (eight years ago) link
sorry if i hastened to conclusions, alex. usually that sort of tale strongly implies, or is accompanied by, the sexist narrative of a woman sleeping her way to the top. i didn't know all these things about the young patti smith.
it still seems kind of irrelevant to whatever you think of her album. plenty of opportunists make good records; put another way, many if not most successful people are opportunists one way or another.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:42 (eight years ago) link
Austin, if you aren't down with BOC and Springsteen, you have no business listening to a Patti Smith album in the first place, imo
Further proving my point that this album has nothing to do with punk.
― Austin, Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:53 (eight years ago) link
Does it matter whether it has anything to do with punk?
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:59 (eight years ago) link
When it's been assigned to that scene and thumped into the ears of music fans for generations following as such, then yes. Its whole reputation relies on it.
― Austin, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:07 (eight years ago) link
Its whole reputation relies on it.
Now you're just being silly.
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:14 (eight years ago) link
<3 horses all timefree money $$$$$$$$$$ redondo beach lyfe $$$$$$$$$$$i can't even really feel how ppl don't think her band was aces?? like they are just a great sound
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:21 (eight years ago) link
HOrses is great and possibly even better live. The Easy Action sets I've heard of her live as well as the boots from the era have been great. I also really like Radio Ethiopia which people apparently thought of as more fo a misfire than Horses. Not so hot on Easter which is more poppy or conventionally rocky or something.
Would love a set of her journalism. Kind of surprised there isn't one out but haven't come across one.Did really enjoy Just Kids too
― Stevolende, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:41 (eight years ago) link
she's "punk" in a historical rather than a musicological sense, inasmuch as she belongs to the counterculture that followed in the wake of the hippies & rejected many of their values. this seems really obvious to me? idk
plus she had an attitude (or at least projected one, on record) and couldn't sing for shit
― bernard snowy, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:42 (eight years ago) link
she loved hippies!
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:43 (eight years ago) link
Dylan, Jagger etc
She was heavily involved in the CBGB scene that Television set up and became what was known as New York Punk.Seemed to be about d.i.y. lo fi return to basics rock after late 60s early 70s rock excess. Contained a lot of improvisation but wasn't as technique based as the mainstream of the time.
― Stevolende, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:52 (eight years ago) link
(xp) I hope you're not implying Dylan and Jagger were hippies?
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:55 (eight years ago) link
Anyway, it's not as cut and dried as that, she was hippyish and punky.
new york "punk" avant la lettre didn't subscribe to the whole (generally overstated) punk orthodoxy, in sound or ideology
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:56 (eight years ago) link
in other words this is a dumb conversation
you might like patti smith or you might not, but it shouldn't have to do with whether or not she is "punk" unless you have signed a contract saying you can only like punk rock.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:57 (eight years ago) link
Also, musically her band were pretty punky!
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:57 (eight years ago) link
Oh and the guitarist really triggered a return to basics in compiling Nuggets. I think that has been pointed to by a lot of people as a triggering point.I'm still not sure if Kaye was recognising people buying singles from the era when he was working at Village Oldies which from the name I'd assume was a 2nd hand place.
― Stevolende, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:59 (eight years ago) link
I never thought of her as punk in the same way the Sex Pistols were, and never really felt that I was being asked to feel that way. I don't see that she's someone who calls out for a contrarian response. Her most recent album is wonderful, as is her first. I've been told that she was amazing live, and am prepared to believe that.
― dlp9001, Thursday, 5 May 2016 22:20 (eight years ago) link
I'm trying to think about which opening statement is more ballsy. "I am an antichrist, I am an anarchist." or "Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." My sense is that most people couldn't parse the first because they didn't know enough about Greek prefixes, but would understand that the second was problematic.
― dlp9001, Thursday, 5 May 2016 22:25 (eight years ago) link
I'm one of those milennials so I have a woefully poor grounding in mod v rocker studies but for what little it's worth patti smith is quite clearly one of the biggest hippies on the planet
― dat login (wins), Thursday, 5 May 2016 22:26 (eight years ago) link
I was behind her in line at Kim's Underground once, when she dealt with aplomb with an asshole Kim's employee, which forever endeared her to me.
― dlp9001, Thursday, 5 May 2016 22:29 (eight years ago) link
Genre descriptions for Horses:
Wikipedia- Punk rock, art punk, garage rockAllMusic- New York Punk, Punk/New WaveDiscogs- Rock, Art Rock (this is the only one that gets right)RateYourMusic- Proto-Punk, Singer/Songwriter, Garage Rock, Poetry, Art Punk, Piano Rock
No.
― Austin, Friday, 6 May 2016 00:15 (eight years ago) link
Ha, I started this thread 14 years ago partly because of this problem: Taking Sides: Patti Smith vs Aerosmith
― Hi! I'm twice-coloured! (Sund4r), Friday, 6 May 2016 00:33 (eight years ago) link
contains the following unedited sequence of posts, from the halcyon days when this board could reliably make me belly-laugh at work:
Both of them pale in comparison to Alice Cooper. I'd love to hear Patti's pronunciations of all those dead French guys' names. Also, the 'legendary' first line of 'Horses', pfffft - one of those Statements to which the only possible reply is "Yeah, so what?"Aerosmith had a few moments of accidental comingtogetherness (chemical division). 'Rocks' is to garage rock what 'Exile' was to gospel music. 'Night in the Ruts' has some interesting what-the-fuck-were-they-on moments too.― dave q, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink* * *First of all, Patti by a mile. But Aerosmith could rawk, in an illiterate sense. So they were cool for awhile (like 2 LPs worth) - until they started recycling every fucking thing. I hate Aerosmith soooo much. I can't think of a band that's less creative.― Dave225, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink* * *fucking yank shit. golden oldys. i love music from what ive seen board should be called i love shit cos thats all u talk about.― XStatic Peace, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink
Aerosmith had a few moments of accidental comingtogetherness (chemical division). 'Rocks' is to garage rock what 'Exile' was to gospel music. 'Night in the Ruts' has some interesting what-the-fuck-were-they-on moments too.― dave q, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink
* * *
First of all, Patti by a mile.
But Aerosmith could rawk, in an illiterate sense. So they were cool for awhile (like 2 LPs worth) - until they started recycling every fucking thing. I hate Aerosmith soooo much. I can't think of a band that's less creative.― Dave225, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink
fucking yank shit. golden oldys. i love music from what ive seen board should be called i love shit cos thats all u talk about.― XStatic Peace, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink
― bernard snowy, Friday, 6 May 2016 01:41 (eight years ago) link
lol
dave q is correct in re "Yeah, so what?"
― wizzz! (amateurist), Friday, 6 May 2016 01:44 (eight years ago) link
& yet your very, "so what" response... is only possible because of punk rock hmmm?? makes u think
― bernard snowy, Friday, 6 May 2016 01:46 (eight years ago) link
briefly considered starting a thread for people to post the opening lyrics from various classic albums followed by "Yeah, so what?", thought better of it
― soref, Friday, 6 May 2016 01:51 (eight years ago) link
But yet I know, where'er I go, / That there hath pass'd away a glory—Yeah, so what?
― bernard snowy, Friday, 6 May 2016 02:01 (eight years ago) link
(this joke is: because I have become a lonely old man yelling of clouds, how it was better here before, & such)
― bernard snowy, Friday, 6 May 2016 02:03 (eight years ago) link
worst and most worst depressing thread
thread sucks, punk sucks, horses still pretty good
― contenderizer, Friday, 6 May 2016 02:49 (eight years ago) link
Did you not read the thread subject?
― Austin, Friday, 6 May 2016 02:56 (eight years ago) link
Yes,I recommend "Just Kids"
― Mark G, Friday, 6 May 2016 06:51 (eight years ago) link
punk sucks
If I could time-travel, the New York mid-70s punk scene would be one of my favoured destinations.
― Half-baked profundities. Self-referential smirkiness (Bob Six), Friday, 6 May 2016 07:27 (eight years ago) link
Bought this years ago. Played it twice. Completely underwhelmed each time. It's poetry rock, and who wants that? I don't.
― Hey Bob (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 6 May 2016 08:40 (eight years ago) link
xp me too
― contenderizer, Friday, 6 May 2016 11:10 (eight years ago) link
If you don't get much out of the incredible rollercoaster momentum of Gloria and Free Money, or the chorus of Break It Up then I don't know what to say in response. I see so many of the haters on this thread repping for so many dull and/or turgid rock records and this is the one you come out to bat against?
I think Patti in general came across at both the right AND the wrong point in musical history, in that I associate her with a kind of bohemianism that was starting to feel old-fashioned. This is pretty much the only area where comparing her with Debbie Harry (who really did seem like the future) is remotely useful. But at the same time her music is primal and squally enough that associating her with punk doesn't feel totally inappropriate.
― Matt DC, Friday, 6 May 2016 11:23 (eight years ago) link
I don't think I'll ever be able to read fans of Killing Joke and Grizzly Bear throw shade on Patti Smith without rolling my eyes.
― Matt DC, Friday, 6 May 2016 11:28 (eight years ago) link
I dont really understand why Patti needs to be compared with Debbie Harry anyway, and why it is 'remotely useful'.
― Half-baked profundities. Self-referential smirkiness (Bob Six), Friday, 6 May 2016 11:53 (eight years ago) link
I love both equally, but when I listen to Patti I feel like she's positioning herself as part of a lineage that reaches backwards into the Velvets and the Beats, even as she's reacting against that lineage. A kind of bohemianism that predated rock and assimilated it. Whereas Debbie feels like she's reaching forward, into the kind of pop moves and pop forms (rap, disco) that will dominate the decades to come. As icons of a particular scene, they feel like they're on different sides of a watershed.
In general I find the comparisons between them pretty facile and not remotely useful, but people still make them, a lot.
― Matt DC, Friday, 6 May 2016 12:10 (eight years ago) link
You just made a good/interesting one tho, so that's something
― albvivertine, Friday, 6 May 2016 12:26 (eight years ago) link
I think there was some level of rivalry between the 2 back in CBGB days. Patti trying to poach Clem Burke when he auditioned for Blondie was one thing that caused friction. It happened in CBGB itself when Smith happened to be there, not sure how intentionally, but wasn't a very tactful move on her part.
― Stevolende, Friday, 6 May 2016 12:29 (eight years ago) link
Last two posts signed Matt DC are right otm
― The WLS National Batdance (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 6 May 2016 12:32 (eight years ago) link
Matt DC tellem
― contenderizer, Friday, 6 May 2016 13:35 (eight years ago) link
I love this album btw, although I may love Easter more.
― Hi! I'm twice-coloured! (Sund4r), Friday, 6 May 2016 13:36 (eight years ago) link
I feel like she's positioning herself as part of a lineage that reaches backwards into the Velvets and the Beats, even as she's reacting against that lineage. A kind of bohemianism that predated rock and assimilated it.
feel the phrase "jim morrison" needs to occur somewhere in that sentence, tho it's perhaps what's giving her detractors the hives
― contenderizer, Friday, 6 May 2016 13:38 (eight years ago) link
fuck a thread title, punk
― contenderizer, Friday, 6 May 2016 13:40 (eight years ago) link
the reality was that the lines between "punk" and "hippie" were always very blurred and ppl on this thread seem to be having some sort of bizarre 1984 argument
greg ginn saw like 80 dead shows!johnny rotten sold acid at hawkwind shows!joe strummer walked around in flares strumming acoustic guitar & looking like nick drake!
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 6 May 2016 13:54 (eight years ago) link
― Matt DC
truth bomb
― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 6 May 2016 13:57 (eight years ago) link
ums OTM
― Hi! I'm twice-coloured! (Sund4r), Friday, 6 May 2016 14:10 (eight years ago) link