Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

he has the option to play his own music and keep all the money.

All the money from the eight people interested in hearing "Blonde Hair, Brown Nose" and "Bang Your Groove Thang"?

And there it is.

yeah I feel Ahmet is being a little disingenuous bringing up the $1/year thing (like an infomercial..."less than a cup of coffee! hell, I'll pay it myself!") but having ZPZ touring is beneficial to everyone so part of me doubts they're trying to put the screws to him or anything

i finally get why Ariel Pink is compared to Zappa all the time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMdhWRO4-dQ

what a horrible song

Think of all the hard work so many people are doing to preserve the legacy of songs like that!

I'm all choked up about it.

Dweezil was doing that song with the Zappa Plays Zappa thing a few years back.

is comedy r&b really so bad

Haven't heard that one. What album's it on?

^^^ Joe's Garage

Jerk's Garbage morelike.

Try sitting thru all 3 sides of that, one of Frank's better albums, so Zappa fans tell me.

All Zappa fans?

(Jerk's Garbage is a good take, except for "Watermelon in Easter Hay" and "Outside Now")

The first album has a few funny songs (if you're 14, like I was when I first heard it); the second album is completely forgettable (at any rate, I've forgotten what it sounds like); the third album has a nice instrumental at the end.

Ha, I kind of like "Catholic Girls", despite the lyrical sentiments.

I still think "Stick it Out" and "Sy Borg" are pretty funny, just in a "what the fuck is going on?" kinda way

Apparently Frank thought so too, which is why we got Thing-Fish, THREE MORE ALBUMS full of this stuff. And yet somehow, not funny in the slightest.

I only used to listen to Joe's Garage years ago because it is one of only a couple of Zappa albums with Vinnie Colaiuta. But it's awful music. Frank was pretty much the worst part of any Zappa album. Worst singer, worst player, worst person responsible for the silly voices, dumb parody, stupid satire - and his songs ARE stupid, too. That's the must frustrating aspect of Zappa. For a guy so smart, he was so dumb. And he was a dick about it, too. "Oh, you think that's dumb? You just don't get it." "Oh, you think that's smart? Well, you're stupid, because it's just a dumb song."

I think "Watermelon in Easter Hay" is one of the best things he ever did. It wouldn't occur to me to listen to that whole album, though.

For a guy so smart, he was so dumb. And he was a dick about it, too. "Oh, you think that's dumb? You just don't get it." "Oh, you think that's smart? Well, you're stupid, because it's just a dumb song."

Yep that's Frank in a nutshell right there. I'm always astounded by stuff like "Billy the Mountain", which features so many different sections and riffs and little bits that have to be syncopated perfectly to work, and yet the whole thing is so stupid and irritating, he's like a guy who spent five years learning to fart Beethoven's 9th.

I'd enjoy more of it as cartoon music music on par with Raymond Scott if he weren't so snide. I also have a low threshold for widdly guitar in the Zappa/McLaughlin mold.

Well, to start with, John McLaughlin is a much better guitarist than Zappa; I don't know any guitarist who thinks very highly of Zappa the musician, let alone improvisational musician, and there's a reason he hired so many "stunt guitarists." But anyway, what I was saying was that Zappa is the worst aspect of pretty much all Zappa. If everything stayed the same but he was gone it'd probably be a tolerable listen.

Not sure the stunt guitarists and various vocalists do too much to improve matters.

Anyway I guess Dweezil's side is coming so things are probably about to get worse

Kinda feel bad that Frank's legacy being dragged through this but then I remember how he treated the original MOI and did that horrible We're Only in it For the Money remaster with the sole purpose of cutting them out of their share, so yeah, guess this runs in the family

I've tried with Zappa, many times, but in the end I've had to admit it just sounds like a very, very musically advanced student comedy revue.

he's like a guy who spent five years learning to fart Beethoven's 9th.

Yep

... hold on there, I've never heard that given as the reason for the WOIIFTM re-recordings.

Frank never admitted to it but I think that was definitely the reason. This FAQ kinda explains it:

http://lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/misc/why.html

Basically - FZ claimed the original tapes were too damaged and the bass and drums needed to be re-recorded, but a number of People Who Were There claim this is not actually true.

(I guess denying royalties was not the 'sole purpose' - but definitely a big factor his decision, given how stingy he was with those guys)

I heard the damaged tapes story, also that he thought the playing basically sucked.

Any shortcomings in the original recordings were entirely down to Zappa himself though, he produced and mixed the original albums, pretty ineptly imo.

I heard the damaged tapes story, also that he thought the playing basically sucked.

Feel like I always spam the Zappa threads with this cherce nugget but do you guys know the story about FZ and Weird Al's bass player?

Nobody taking the bait, huh? Okay... no, I don't know the story!

http://www.globalbass.com/archives/dec2001/stephen_jay.htm

Some of his instrumentals still do it for me. I have a soft spot for Moggio (from the otherwise very weak Man From Utopia album), which I think is an astounding composition. The counterpointing bass is incredible, and it's all written out.

TS: 'Catholic Girls' vs. 'Jewish Princess'

McLaughlin is on another level than Zappa, plus their viewpoints are so different, highly spiritual questing vs LA cynic

thank you so much for posting that interview James. worlds collide - im intrigued!

fun fact: Mahavishnu Orchestra was FZ's opening band during the early days of the Roxy band. Apparently there was a pretty big rivalry between the guitarists and two bands. Plus the various drummers and percussionists in FZ's band were all blown away by Billy Cobham.

Christ talk about some serious playing being thrown down that's quite a bill

ponty (who was in the mothers at that point) wound up going to the mahavishnu orchestra a year or so later. and yeah, this was spring '73, when the original mahavishnu orchestra was at their peak... they'd shred faces for 70 minutes, and then zappa would come on and start with the shitty blues of "cosmik debris". that said the rest of the mothers' set was solid material- stuff like rdnzl and the instrumental version of "inca roads", and even if the band wasn't nearly as tight as mahavishnu at that point they were no slouches.

Not only that but isn't "Cosmik Debris" a dig at the kind of spiritual guru stuff John McLaughlin et al were involved with?

Frank is an amazing guitar player and almost every guitarist I know thinks so. His soloing is very emotive. Guitar solos suck, but somehow Frank's don't.

I just heard a Detroit 76 show where the bass player for Mahavishnu joins them on stage with Flo and Eddie and the drummer from Grand Funk!!!

would listen to that show

btw yeah this developing "guitarists don't think zappa was a good one" strain in this thread is lolworthily wrong & bullshit

Here u go its a great show!

https://youtu.be/lWYgrreRRbw

btw yeah this developing "guitarists don't think zappa was a good one" strain in this thread is lolworthily wrong & bullshit

I think it was just one person who said this? FZ was hit and miss imo. Some of his solos just seem to go nowhere to me but when he nailed it (e.g. "Watermelon"), he fucking nailed it. I don't think he was near McLaughlin's league as a player but hardly anyone is.

I think 'Watermelon' is the only song on that record where the solo wasn't pasted in from another source. FZ was going through his xenochrony phase by that time.

He was a great soloist, somehow hit a sweet spot of thinking + feeling in his solo construction. Not the best in the world at playing complicated written parts, which is why he hired stunt guitarists. In retrospect it's slightly surprising that he occasionally hired guitarists because of their feel for the blues (Lowell George, Ray White), you'd think this fan of Gatemouth Brown and Johnny Guitar Watson would be all over that himself, but I guess as the main guy on stage he wanted to free himself up for other stuff. I wish he'd done more comping when other band members had solo space in jazzier pieces — he does a little bit in Roxy the Movie, and he sounds great comping on "King Kong" on Uncle Meat.

Do we think Belew counts as a stunt guitarist?

Going by Baby Snakes and Sheik Yerbouti, I'd say 80% Dynamic Male Vocalist, 15% Comedy Vocals and 5% Stunt Guitar. He didn't and still doesn't read music, so he had to bring other stuff to the band.