Beyonce in 2016 - 'Formation' and Lemonade

Daddy Lessons is amazing and highlights that if contemporary country artists want to attract my attention, they should co-opt some gospel and Nee Orleans jazz rather than boring 80s rock

Logged in for the first time in ages, because this is the only place I could think of to ask this question. Hey everyone.

How on earth is this being billed as a "feminist" work? Like, really? She spends the hour defining herself in terms of her husband.

It seems that everyone is saying that she put Jay on blast, but from what I can see the story is that he got to cheat on her and she kicked and screamed a bit and then took him back. He must be laughing all the way to the bank.

I'm about as far removed from black american culture as can be, so I can't speak to the racial aspects of the work, but purely from a feminist angle I don't see how this work is in any way empowering to women. Do other people not see this? Is the visual of Beyonce smashing things with a bat so potent that the fundamental message of the album goes ignored??

oh great

Prepared to be totally shot down. Just confused, and probably stupid.

She spends the hour defining herself in terms of her husband.

Well, that's a way of interpreting it I suppose.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81QCTJzws4L._SY606_.jpg

Is the visual of Beyonce smashing things with a bat so potent that the fundamental message of the album goes ignored??

you don't seem to have a solid idea of what you think the "fundamental message" of the album is. i assume that's why you've come in here to ask these questions?

trying to evaluate the work, or anything, from a 'purely' feminist lens that entirely does away with considering racial politics is nonsensical. that doesn't mean it's not commonly attempted: google the words "beyonce not feminist" and you'll find pieces upon pieces upon pieces from the last maybe 5 years all grappling with the same clumsy questions that have sprung to your mind, resolved with answers that are sloppy that you might nevertheless find satisfying

https://twitter.com/gillespeterson/status/725200711483543552

lol

you don't seem to have a solid idea of what you think the "fundamental message" of the album is.

That's true, I've only listened through a couple of times.

trying to evaluate the work, or anything, from a 'purely' feminist lens that entirely does away with considering racial politics is nonsensical.

Yes, this is a good point. I readily admit my ignorance here.

google the words "beyonce not feminist" and you'll find pieces upon pieces upon pieces from the last maybe 5 years all grappling with the same clumsy questions that have sprung to your mind, resolved with answers that are sloppy that you might nevertheless find satisfying

Do you mean that you regard the general argument that Beyonce is not a feminist (not one with which I'm familiar) unconvincing? Or just that nobody has done a good job of making the argument? I don't see much value in reading flawed arguments, and certainly not to convince myself of something. Are there any pieces on this topic that you rate?

Not trying to pick a fight, or trash Beyonce or the album (I like a lot of it). I am sincerely confused. The video is full of messages and images about empowering black women, but—to me, at least—the lyrics seem overly concerned with men; their feelings, thoughts, motivations, strengths, and weaknesses.

Well, even from a non-black perspective like mine the big issue - and this has always been a big issue with Beyoncé - is simply who gets to tell the story, who gets to define what happened, who you are, how it was/is experienced, what the consequences are not only for her but for them as a couple, and these issues very readily tie in with the whole #BLM movement's insistence on, well, the basic humanity of the people that all this shit happens to, you know? As for power relations between the sexes... just try to imagine what Jay's next album will sound like (if it ever happens) and how his persona and narrative will be changed by this album and you'll hopefully catch my drift. What can he rap about now? Hardly his trophy wife!

At the very least performing 99 Problems should be very awkward for him from now on.

I feel like the album's narrative, if there is one, is about the way in which the fact of a partner's adultery throws into sharp relief the fact (the challenge, the opportunity, the obstacle) of needing to actively choose to invest in and continue with it each day. The decision to take Jay-Z back by the end of the album is lent drama because it is presented as a very deliberate decision that, for long stretches of the album, was close to being decided the other way. The album becomes a dramatisation and celebration of that choice, the fact of choosing, the fact of being able to choose.

Whether you agree with it or not, Beyonce frames her decision to stay with her partner as a decision coming from a place of strength i.e. having beaten him to the ground ("Hold Up" through "Sorry") she stands over him with her sword, wavering ("Six Inch" through "Sandcastles") but instead of running him through she decides to stretch out her hand and help him stand up again ("All Night").

The film, at least, appears to posit that narrative within a broader thematic context: Beyonce's struggle to maintain her relationship and family as metonymic of the black woman's struggles within US society. But those struggles are still routed through the maintenance of family, albeit at a more serious level than Beyonce's own struggle: e.g. the stills in the film of grieving mothers holding photos of their dead sons are obviously political, but they're also clearly not some narrow assertion of female emancipation from patriarchy.

One of the messages I take from the film in particular is that public displays of grief and anger can be a political act, and one of the ways in which that women, black people, and black women most of all (see Malcolm X quote) are marginalised is that their grief and anger are dismissed, silenced, explained away etc. This can be true vis a vis husbands, employers, "society at large" and hence the reversal of this marginalisation doesn't always or necessarily pull in the same direction.

You may feel that Beyonce connecting her struggle with the struggle of the mothers of African American boys killed by police is a wildly self-aggrandising bridge too far, though I tend to think one of the messages of the film (albeit more implicit than some of the other messages) is that the story of self-empowerment the album describes is a small thing compared to the challenges it exists in relation to and with.

whoa andrew nf came up with the *exact same argument* as azealia banks

Thanks, Tim! That's exactly the kind of thoughtful, enlightening comment I came here for.

At the very least performing 99 Problems should be very awkward for him from now on.

Indeed... I'm very curious to see how the Jay-Z persona is affected by this.

whoa andrew nf came up with the *exact same argument* as azealia banks

Not sure how to take this! haha

One thing that occurred to me was that each of the songs on this album could conceivably be a response to the question "what does singing the blues sound like in 2016?"

something Dori@n wrote on FB otm:

I used to think Kanye was the master of marshalling a diverse team of collaborators into a cohesive album where everyone brought their A game but with Lemonade that honour passes to Beyonce. Every story leaking out from contributors reveals how cleverly she pieced it all together and made every song her own. It's a masterclass in a style of songwriting that too often creates bloodless mishmashes. She's the centre of a whirlpool of talent. I don't think there any bad songs here and there are a fistful of phenomenal ones. This is how to do it right.

How on earth is this being billed as a "feminist" work? Like, really? She spends the hour defining herself in terms of her husband.

everything beyonce does is feminist. there is no point in arguing about this.

when jay-z says 'thats my bitch' about beyonce, this also does not diminish beyonce's feminist credentials.

RELATED, this article about why endlessly debating whether individual choices are "feminist" or not is pointless

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/apr/25/can-you-be-a-feminist-empowering-dicourse-debate

whether beyoncé leaves, or does not leave, a cheating partner who may be jay-z or a fictional character or a blend of both, isn't a decision that should be assessed in reductive "is this feminist y/n" terms. but if you can't see how the album as a whole pushes back against the structural misogyny and racism that black women specifically face, in part by telling a story that strikes a chord with them but also in terms of the visual and lyrical imagery she employs, you're really wilfully blind

and yeah if TLOP was impressive on collagist terms how much more so is lemonade, which brings together so many disparate things and melds them together so seamlessly.

im not a beyonce stan but from following lots of other contradictory artists (and what can be more contradictory/conflicted than trying to be a feminist and uphold the contract of a marriage), contradiction is always good fodder for any musician. the TLOP comparison makes me increasingly interested to hear this album.

purely from a feminist angle I don't see how this work is in any way empowering to women

said the man who decided that this work written and performed by a woman is not empowering to women lol.

trying to imagine a feminism that just ignores men i dunno it sounds like missing the point? completely? yeah there are some forms of that i'm sure but from what i have read and seen feminism is a look at, you know, the reality that we actually live in, including men, marriage, etc., looking at that through a woman's perspective rather than the traditional male's.

like if feminists are not suppose to concern themselves w the male realm then..... what? that doesn't make any sense, it's an unrealistic demand.

I haven't heard a lovelier piece of music all year than Beyoncé's falsetto complementing those Outkast horns on "All Night."

i rolled my eyes @ the "all night" praise upthread, ofc a bunch of dudes gravitate towards the song that forgives him/them

Are you really arguing over whether Beyonce is a feminist? Didn't I say upthread how resolutely this doesn't care about your opinions? Don't you feel it? Your slide into irrelevance. The biggest pop moment of whenever and it doesn't include you. It must be clear to you by now. You're not a factor here. If you want to be a factor at all then it will be on merit. Adjust.

1. formation
2. daddy lessons
3. hold up
4. 6 inch
5. sorry
6. don't hurt yourself
7. love drought
8. freedom
9. sandcastles
10. pray you catch me
11. all night
12. forward

All Night SOUNDS amazing though. That bassline!

Are you really arguing over whether Beyonce is a feminist? Didn't I say upthread how resolutely this doesn't care about your opinions? Don't you feel it? Your slide into irrelevance. The biggest pop moment of whenever and it doesn't include you. It must be clear to you by now. You're not a factor here. If you want to be a factor at all then it will be on merit. Adjust.

― Popture, Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:05 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

is this a joke post?

i can't tell what's going on on ILX half the time. is that addressed to azealia banks? to a poster? is it sarcastic? sincere? i just don't know any more.

i rolled my eyes @ the "all night" praise upthread, ofc a bunch of dudes gravitate towards the song that forgives him/them

― cher guevara (lex pretend), Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:03 PM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This strikes me as unfair both to the song and to the relevant posters ITT.

maybe, it's not like i dislike it, but there's something odd about having an album dominated by anger, sadness, humour, shit-talking, and then to go oh the biggest highlight is the corny happy one at the end. it'd be like saying "coming home" is your favourite off LTTP.

love drought not being in your top 3 makes list irrelevant

i rolled my eyes @ the "all night" praise upthread, ofc a bunch of dudes gravitate towards the song that forgives him/them

― cher guevara (lex pretend), Wednesday, April 27, 2016 8:03 AM (51 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

or her voice sounds gorgeous and it uses the spottie horns to perfection. i literally have no idea what any of the lyrics are.

Ehhhh... not liking All night because she forgives Jay in it is a bit like not getting how this album could possibly be feminist, no? C'mon, Lex, you're better than this. The song is gorgeous.

i don't dislike "all night" but it's so far from the most striking or gorgeous sonically or melodically that i assumed it was either the lyric or the pavlovian reaction to the sample elevating it for others

or her voice sounds gorgeous and it uses the spottie horns to perfection. i literally have no idea what any of the lyrics are.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, April 27, 2016 8:57 AM

I have not been following the lyrics that closely (except on "Don't Hurt Yourself," where the pronoun shifts and misdirections are part of its appeal), hence my side eye at the autobiographical overtones.

i rolled my eyes @ the "all night" praise upthread, ofc a bunch of dudes gravitate towards the song that forgives him/them

― cher guevara (lex pretend), Wednesday, April 27, 2016 8:03 AM (51 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

or her voice sounds gorgeous and it uses the spottie horns to perfection. i literally have no idea what any of the lyrics are.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, April 27, 2016 8:57 AM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

What cad said.

Well, the sample is mighty good. But it's the first half of the album that's really unique, it seems to me as well.

I'm basically into every song on this album except for Daddy Lessons, which I even started to ease my contempt of when seeing it in the film.

i can't really imagine hearing this album or watching the film and not being struck with the idea that i was witnessing an extremely empowered woman at the zenith of her artistry. expressing that power in a way that is specifically and particularly Black is in itself a feminist statement IMO

newsflash, feminists have relationships w/ men too

I'm wondering if Formation is meant to be taken as an epilogue, or a bonus track? Otherwise the narrative goes: Sandcastles (breakdown), Forward (which, of course, breaks down and doesn't go forward), Freedom (a real way forward: Politics) and then the sample about making Lemons from Lemonade? So Beyoncé realizes Jay-Z can't break her, nobody what he throws at her, she will only come out stronger. Hell, she just made a brilliant album out of his betrayal. So let's take him back. And make another master-song about that.

the dark horse of this album for me is "love drought". some of the things she does with her voice !!!!!!! and:

Nine times out of ten, I'm in my feelings
But ten times out of nine, I'm only human

and the barely concealed contempt when she sings:

Tell me, what did I do wrong?
Oh, already asked that, my bad

Formation is easily one of the best three tracks if not the best, but it feels sort of tacked on at the end, when it would have made a really incredible centrepiece. One of those examples of the narrative getting in the way of the musical flow.

the film ends with "all night," right? formation feels like a bonus track. i'm prob not well-versed enough yet to talk about where it could conceivably fit in.

the film does end with "all night" and the instrumental to "formation" is played over the credits. it definitely does feel like a victory lap in the way that "grown woman" did on the last album. still, though, it's a strange way to close it all out since the song sounds so much like it's going to introduce something else. like, okay, we're in formation now. now what?

...now you're ready to take on the world?

it just struck me that in "don't hurt yourself" there...is no guitar apart from a bass guitar? is this right? all the spaces you'd expect a guitar riff are taken up by that amazing vocal backing

The only place where Formatuon woul make narrative sense is at the beginning. More to the point though, the album doesn't need it; as good as it is, it's literally an appendix to the rest of the album, which INO is outstanding as a collective work and a stronger artistic statement than Beyoncé (even though I like isolated songs on Beyoncé more)

A friend wrote that Formation at the end of this makes it sounds like she's out partying looking for fresh men to have sex with. As much as I sympathize with his interpretation I don't really hear it myself though.