Weezer -- Classic or Dud?

Best since Green at least, maybe Pinkerton. Ewbaite was terrible.

spent a lot of time with ewbaite earlier this year and it is super not terrible

It's garbage. A few decent songs (AGN, British, the Happy Meal one – Lonely Girl is alright for the Green outtake that it is), but arguably their worst ever (Back to the Shack may not quite invent a new way to suck, but it's one of a very rare breed), and many more that had one or two good ideas but come out so confused and embarrassing (Foolish, Da Vinci, jesus christ Anonymous). Many of the best riffs are jacked, some from very unfortunate places (vocal melody of Father's verse = Feel Good Inc, Anonymous is basically the theme from The Office). The fidelity is awful too, they ran out of money for the project before even the production was finished, which is why some of the premixes they shared sound better than the album itself.

Even if it were good, the whole thing is tainted by the fact that in order to make his "return to form" Rivers relied on hundreds of hours of focus group sessions conducted with die-hard Weezer fans (ten-point scales, bubble choices, "How do these songs compare to how you would rate the first two albums," the works) over a period of at least 4 years, without even consulting his band. It sure sounds it.

i was at one of those! I just remember it being 10 point scales and notes

"da vinci" is great, i get the hate but rivers' lyrics have always been embarrassing

or tbh I don't get the hate because rivers' lyrics have always been embarrassing

also love "eulogy for a rock band" and "cleopatra"

Yeah, they changed the system a bunch. Sometimes it was just Karl and a tape-recorder in a hotel room, one-on-one (creepy much?).

The lyrics are pretty dumb, sure (I love the chorus', except if by Rosetta Stone he means the software, which of course he does). I'm mostly put off by the Foster the People verses. There's nothing wrong with them in concept, they just sound so limp and hollow. The embarrassment factor in Rivers' lyrics up through Maladroit and after has a totally different valence though, with "No One Else" and Pinkerton he's trying to sound ugly and regressive, and doing it with artistry. Compare that to him channeling a similar voice on a Make Believe outtake like "Outta Here" and it sounds totally clueless. Plus yeah, once you get to Red, you've got the additional stench of product placement everywhere (or a "man, I hope he got paid for that" feel, at least).

"Eulogy" is decent in a vacuum but sounds too much like that one Killers song, and one or two more from that era. Also ties into the whole "rock is dead, guitars are dead, but we're gonna rock out like '94 with the guitar strap the fans love (and focus groups, and a song doctor from Dr. Luke's clinic...shhhhh)" self-reflexivity that I found noxious. "Cleopatra" is another one that had potential, but given that the record reuses so much material from Rivers' archive I almost wonder if the nu metal post-chorus comes from the shelved Fred Durst collab.

With White, I feel none of these issues. And I think these are easily his best lyrics since Pinkerton, in some ways even better just on the page (at least in places – still needs time for me). You could still parse '00s Weezer tendencies in moments of EWBAITE, and they just weren't integrated at all, but here I think they fit into the fabric of the record real well and are some of the brightest spots on it (TGFG, "Jacked Up"). My main issue is the self-plagiarism ("Only In Dreams" has no business being in KOTW's bridge, "LA Girlz" sounds a little much like "Susanne" and "Miss Sweeney" at least pulled it off in a completely different way, the "Pink Triangle" ordeal with the DYWGH solo, and many more), and rated against Green I feel like, well, at least he wrote Green on his own...but those are pretty minor gripes and barely impinge on my top-to-bottom enjoyment of this album. Nice to be able to say that for the first time in my ~14 years of being a fan.

For the record, Red is a giant mess, but if you resequenced the record strictly using outtakes that they actually had finished and mixed at the time, you could come out the other side with something even better than White...That's consensus in a lot of Weezer discussions, though not sure if the opinion's come up here before.

I definitely agree re: the idea of a resequenced red being potentially one of the best weezer records. those b-sides are all great

anyway i was substituting for a friend at one of those focus groups, and had very little investment in a new weezer record being good. the first song they played was "i've had it up to here" and i lost my mind. i think all the songs i rated highly made the record, except for a truly offensive one I gave a 7 or 8 too bc I thought I would make people so mad

I remember nothing about it of course, other than it was definitely not "back to the shack"

Btw unclear of me to have said "strictly" using Red outtakes, I of course meant the best of the standard edition as well.

IHIUTH is definitely a highlight and the demo you heard was probably in its original key (a half step or two even higher), which fans generally consider the superior version.

Anyway, I generally don't consider Weezer fans to be the best co-directors for Weezer's future (they're much too conservative), especially not some average of dozens-or-hundreds of them. I just find a bit tragic the idea of trying to mount a critical comeback on the basis of systematized pandering, especially when the best aspects of Red era (and even early Rad) material involved Rivers going out on a wild limb. Especially bummed that it kinda worked, and somehow White's fairing worse. Only a bummer given how often Rivers has gone on record as someone who cares deeply about such things.

EWBAITE isn't great and does feel weirdly calculated (like much else they've done), but the only track that's garbage is Back to the Shack. it's decent enough for a band to be making at that point in their career let alone for one with their low standards. at the time it seemed about as good as a 'return to form' for them could realistically be but White is a much more enjoyable album than i thought was possible for them.

especially when the best aspects of Red era (and even early Rad) material involved Rivers going out on a wild limb

i'd argue this extends to the best tracks on hurley which sound really wacky and un-weezer-y

How come this story about Weezer using focus groups isn't better known? If you google "Weezer focus group", the only thing that comes up is a blog post written by... soyrev. It's so weird (to me, maybe not to music industry people) and fascinating, you'd think it would be all over the place!

lol well it was all very hush hush at the time, and then it was still like 1.5-2 years before ewbaite came out, so at that point...no one cared? everyone forgot? soyrev mentioning them now is the first time I've seen anyone talk about the focus groups

I think so too. It's the only album ever made in this way. The closest precedent I can think of would be Rivers himself, with the "Rivers Correspondence Board" in '01/'02, even if he claimed to have ultimately disregarded what everyone said and gone with his gut on Maladroit (but given fans were providing incorporated feedback for things as granular as the phrasing of specific bars in guitar solos, obviously it's more complicated than that…not the fans' fault that the base material was as shabby as it was, though).

If you really want to get into it, there is a 4chan post out there written by a disgruntled focus group attendee who felt used (and alleges that some of his friends who were involved even felt plagiarized), and tons of old Weezer fan board postings riddled with deleted posts over at allthingsweezer.com (a private forum). The earliest I heard of it was somebody PMing me there in 2010 with details about how it went down, and how he recommended me to them on the "strength" of the terrible blog of mine you found, and at the time I thought it was weird but didn't think much of it. When discourse finally spilled into the forum post-ewbaite about the extent/systemization of it, I got pretty grossed out and tried to get to the bottom of it (especially since I had gotten a promo of the album and the PR literature made zero mention of it, or even the fact that the album had tons of famous credited co-writers, which judging by the reviews most critics didn't even seem to notice), but everyone involved was almost completely mum because they don't want to risk being blacklisted from future "opportunities" (some did confirm certain things for me 100% off-record). Tensions rose as Rivers and Weezer's management sent the word down that they wanted such discussions quelled, which I found truly pathetic, given it implied that this was something they were embarrassed of having done, and didn't want reaching the public during a time of at least moderate critical redemption. Deleted my account for that very reason, actually.

So yeah. Given what a mess the record is and the way it was made, I have no qualms ranking ewbaite as the very worst of the Weez (I've got more respect for Raditude even, at least Cuolmes was going for exactly what he wanted). Plus I just don't think an album with a pandering nursery rhyme apology for the vast majority of your career a la "Back to the Shack" (which sucks in the exact way it's apologizing for, right down to the hack co-writer) could ever ever be good, throw that thing on Pinkerton and even that would be one of the worst albums of all time.

I should add that in ewbaite-era interviews Rivers did make a couple mentions of "really loving his fans now" and occasionally hanging out after the shows to play them new stuff and "let them know where they're at," but skirted any mention of soliciting pen-and-pad feedback on a mass scale. I think the sessions had an impact also on White (I remember "Do You Wanna Get High" having been one of the songs discussed at one of those sessions c. 2013, 2014), but far less so. That's just speculation though, for all I know they could still be happening after every show.

oh well in the interests of not getting anyone in ilx in trouble I have no idea what you're talking about and I hallucinated whatever I confirmed

which judging by the reviews most critics didn't even seem to notice

well I mean this is always the thing. can you tell dan wilson cowrote "california kids"?

the only time I was like "oh yeah that's where that idea came from" was justin hawkins, and I guess some of the horrible raditude b-sides

I meant more in a looking-at-wikipedia way. Honestly I don't care about "Cuomonly" songwriting nearly as much as your average Weezer die-hard (though I did coin the term :B), a lot of my favorite Weezer songs are co-writes – "Sweeney," "The Underdogs." But I do think when the narrative behind your record is "Maybe I should play the lead guitar and Pat should play the drums," "rockin' out like it's '94," etc., it's worth mentioning that a pro songwriter is helping you come up with those words whereas in '94 all those songs would be just Cuomo and the occasional Pat co-write. (As a secondary point to the fact that "rocking out like it's '94" is a stupid goal, and even then, on those terms the record fails.)

Though yes, I remember some ATW posters saying "wow this sounds kinda like the Darkness! in a good way!" and then being sad to discover that it was actually co-written by the dude from the Darkness. (Maybe you can hallucinate-confirm, but I think co-writer status wasn't something mentioned at the focus groups, either.)

Christ, I guess I've missed talking about Weezer on the internet. Even when the music's bad, they're one of the most interesting bands to ever be.

making new threads anymore but if anyone wants to post a "Weezer 2004-present POX" list, i'd be curious to see what kind of stuff gets chosen.

forgot to respond to this

blowin my stack
blowin my stack
blowin my stack
blowin my stack
blowin my stack
blowin my stack
blowin my stack
blowin my stack
blowin my stack
summer elaine and drunk dori

man, YES. YES. "blowin' my stack" is like neo-weezer on a classic weezer level, i love it so much. many do not! i really don't get why stuff like this was left behind for Make Believe, but then, you could say that every album

my picks chronologically, going from post-pinkerton onward just because

almost all Homie/'97 "rivers cuomo band" material
o girl
o girlfriend
photograph
island in the sun
hash pipe (falsetto metal song about transvestite prostitutes on FM radio in '01, yes please)
broken arrows (answering machine version, band demo is botched)
sandwiches time (!)
death and destruction
butterfly ('02 live version released in '05, cheating but it's so diff and so good)
worry rock (green day cover)
the organ player
[post-2004 starts here]
blowin' my stack (!!)
the story of my life (weezer's only *actual* emo song)
everybody wants a chance to feel all alone
i can love
hyde (specific '05 live version whose date idk)
the angel and the one (replete w/ stars-of-the-lid-on-guitar jam at the end)
miss sweeney (the protagonist of pinkerton at age 35, one of my very favorites)
pig (fans prefer the rivers demo, love that too but band version is in my all-time top 5)
the spider (!!)
i don't want to let you go (rivers demo, though raditude version isn't that bad)
run over by a truck (!)
the prettiest girl in the whole wide world ('97 version better, but rad outtake is good)
the underdogs (!!)
time flies
thank god for girls (have not seen any review that "gets" the lyrics imo)
do you wanna get high?
LA girlz
summer elaine

oh, that "o girlfriend" would have to be the '02 toronto version. gorgeous.

there are more...

Thanks for that, soyrev, imma check out that list. Like many casual Weezer fans, I only own (and love) the first two albums. I've heard a bunch of unexciting singles since then, but I suspected out of like eight albums there had to be some gems

sure! unfortunately with a lot of that stuff there're multiple versions (pre-2004 especially), and the mileage def varies, so my apologies if i waste your time on the wrong "organ player," "o girl," or "sandwiches time."

the high guitar harmonies in the background of "good thing" are my favorite thing about the new record right now. it's what i always want guitars to sound like. and pat's always been a great drummer but i love his little clustering fills throughout this record

Dud.

Yes, even the first two albums, which are incredibly overrated beyond belief. Pinkerton is a heap of shit, and they have quite possibly the most irritating fanbase of any band. Songs From The Black Hole isn't a lost classic, and never was.

sleeping giant awoken

at last turrican is here to answer the thread question

at least there's less frothing at mouth "rivers is a scumbag" chat at allthingsweezer these days, back there I go

how on earth have you even dug up SFTBH material if you think Pinkerton is a "heap of shit?" O_o

(i'll agree that SFTBH was overreaching, he was wise to ditch)

my real weezer 2004-now pox:

blowin' my stack
this is such a pity
the greatest man that ever lived
pig
the angel and the one
trainwrecks
the british are coming
da vinci
summer elaine and drunk dori
la girlz

i prefer Alone III to Pinkerton, that thing is a goddamn masterpiece

they have quite possibly the most irritating fanbase of any band

sunglass hut cashiers?

to claim there is any more than a good EP out of the red sessions is beyond delusional

angel, pig, sweeney and the spider are among weezer's best written, performed, and produced songs (except all the pitch correction on rivers' voice in angel =/). autopilot rules, too, in a way they've never done before or since. greatest man is silly but fantastic. next-tier options like dreamin, the odd couple, pork and beans, troublemaker, and automatic are getting into more lightweight territory, but not nearly enough to unanchor the other five or six gems. you'll also notice among most of these songs the theme of coming to terms w/ adulthood and eventual death (and, in a couple places, trying to fight that), which would've been a pretty good look for a rock band entering its own middle age. i don't remember if this was ever confirmed or just a fan rumor, but if they did track brian's are you gonna be, that's a lovely song that would've fit in perfectly (as opposed to the mess they made of thought i knew). they also did a rivers vocal version of king, which i can imagine being (/and am told is) amazing.

so, yeah: an incredible 4-song EP, a great 6-song mini-album, or the third best LP of theirs by miles.

I was surprised just now to find Island in the Sun is by far the most popular Weezer song on Spotify.

xp funny how poor brian didn't even want thought i knew on the record, and complains about it in the liner notes of the album itself. must've been sad to have tried for years to get a song on a record and then have it be a botch released against your will. (then again, i'm sure he's psyched for his well-earned credits on la girlz and endless bummer!)

my heart songs is great. i like red album the most of the post-green LPs

Just listened through the White Album again and it's very sunny and I feel excessively good about it right now. I love the little semi-motifs from L.A. Girlz that crop up in California Kids and Do You Wanna Get High?. It all holds together so well.

http://imgur.com/UfR8eLR

same, small, new england, farm, town

oops

http://i.imgur.com/UfR8eLR.jpg

good interview here - http://n.pr/23CsP3E

thanks for linking that ^ ... good listen

feel pretty sad for him when I hear him obsessing over Metacritic scores

Rivers is an absolutely fascinating psych case

He was on Song Exploder a couple weeks ago talking about his songwriting process:

http://songexploder.net/weezer

Uh, now that I'm listening to the NPR thing, I guess the content may be pretty similar.

https://vine.co/v/MTI3l0AKlDh