The Replacements: Classic or Dud?

YES, that's it. Details, details details...which, as the 'Mats books shows, can be assembled in a way that's engaging and moves the story along. And I generally like Guralnick -- Sweet Soul Music and the first Elvis volume are ace. But I passed on the Cooke bio, fearing it'd be similar in tone to Careless Love (and the reviews confirmed this -- too much talk, not enough rock).

Interesting. I love the details, and the rigidly chronological structure. To me it really brought Elvis to life. Plus, throughout the entire Careless Love era, Elvis didn't really record that much essential music outside of what he did in Memphis in 1968-69.

Not sure how much fun it would be to read a deep critical analysis of Moody Blue.

The thing is, I LOVE the '70s Elvis box, and '70s Elvis in general, much more than '60s Elvis, and even more than some '50s Elvis. I guess the details I wanted were more about how he picked his (incredible, amazing) band, how he chose the material for He Touched Me...and tbf, maybe it was there and I'm just forgetting it.

Plus, throughout the entire Careless Love era, Elvis didn't really record that much essential music outside of what he did in Memphis in 1968-69.

Hahahahahaaaaa fuck yooooouuuuu

'70s Elvis > '50s Elvis > '60s Elvis

Cosigning that.

now that we've covered elvis and winona in addition to the replacements i feel like this thread really gets me

I really like Guralnick but I struggled with his Sam Cooke for the same reason. "On the morning of blah blah, Cooke wore a white suit with brown shoes and took a cab from such and such street to this other street and paid the driver $. He stepped out, left foot first, and closed the door behind him with his right hand." It got so bogged down in the details I started losing interest in the bigger picture.

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, March 16, 2016 10:10 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's funny--this is exactly what initially frustrated me about Robin Kelley's Thelonious Monk bio, which I struggled with and almost put down a few times. But then I sorta got into the groove of it and it ended up being one of my favorite music biographies. It's a matter of adapting to that style, I think. Like reading Gertrude Stein or something. But I hear ya - it can be tedious. "Monk's regular driver, Gary, was sick that Thursday, so Gary's brother Larry was given the job, but he had to borrow a car because he didn't have one of his own" etc etc*

Bought the Mats book, eager to dive in. Unfortunately it arrived on the same day as the new edition of England's Hidden Reverse. I may never read fiction again!

*(not an exact quote but pretty close)

wholeheartedly agree about 70s Elvis

xp

That Monk bio stymied me, too, but I might go back to it. I think my local library has it.

Yeah, couldn't get into it either.

From M. Matos article in Pitchfork on First Avenue

At that show, a local musician watched U2 run through its biggest hit, “I Will Follow,” twice. With a mixture of inspiration and bemusement that would become his calling card, Paul Westerberg then went off and wrote an answer song. Soon his band, the Replacements, were performing “Kids Don’t Follow” along with a torrent of other similarly snotty material.

http://pitchfork.com/features/article/9832-everybody-is-a-star-how-the-rock-club-first-avenue-made-minneapolis-the-center-of-music-in-the-80s/

The Replacements also attempt a cover of "I Will Follow" on "Shit Hits the Fans."

I love the details! Though the last rock bio I read was the Mark Lewisham Beatles PT 1, and I guess in that book all the details serve to make the almost religious figures of the Beatles into real life kids again.

Enjoying this very much so far.

Side note: weird to me how Anita Stinson repeatedly exposed her children to drunken, abusive monsters. Every five paragraphs it's "Then she met so and so, and he was also an alcoholic misanthrope who abused the children mercilessly"

So far, Paul isn't coming off as quite the bully he's been portrayed as in previous books. But I just started this last night (they've just changed their name from the Impediments)

I love that both Bob and Paul were Johnny Winter fans

At a certain point in the book it feels like every single major character is an alcoholic. It kind of reminded me of the Johnny Cash bio, with pills.

I found the recording of Don't Tell a Soul sort of illuminating. Revealing that while yeah, they recorded to a click, Wallace says Mars was dead on and that it was the other three who were off and had to be fixed with studio tricks. Also sort of tragic that the band more or less waits until they are burned out to finally make a real stab at success. It's just heartbreaking how their substance abuse and bad behavior comes back to haunt them, physically and professionally. It's like these guys were so messed up and self medicated that they totally lack the means to communicate like normal human beings.

Westerberg does not come off well. He's just mean and a dick to everyone. There is clearly something wrong with the guy based on this book.

Only rock guy I've ever hated more after reading a bio is Warren Zevon.

Revealing that while yeah, they recorded to a click, Wallace says Mars was dead on and that it was the other three who were off and had to be fixed with studio tricks.

As someone who had subscribed to the "click-track messed Mars up" theory, this was definitely revealing. However, Mars still dialed back his fills -- no more "Favorite Thing" tumbles to be heard.

I actually found the technical aspects -- using a Fairlight on PTMM, Wallace fixing DTAS with a digital delay (still not clear on how that worked) -- fascinating, particularly in a book where I absolutely did not expect to read about such things.

It's just heartbreaking how their substance abuse and bad behavior comes back to haunt them, physically and professionally.

It got frustrating to read about Paul's annoyance at not having a hit, only for him to immediately turn around and viciously insult radio programming people to their faces. I'm not saying he should've unquestioningly Played The Game (and radio people are perfect/easy targets), but to complain about a lack of chart success while simultaneously and deliberately scuttling any hope of said success came across as the absolute worst kind of knee-jerk contrarianism.

(Funny thing is, though, WXRT in Chicago still played the 'Mats in regular rotation and promoted their local shows, even after their on-air dustup.)

Whoah, you guys are much faster readers than me! Guess I'll avoid this thread for a few days, ya spoilers. ;)

Not read the book, but I've always figured Paul for a dick. It's not exactly hidden in his songwriting. The smirky smartass turned self-important poet, kind of the worst of two types combined. And I say that as a huge fan. I never mistook him for someone I wanted to hang out with (or be in a band with, no doubt).

I can't believe he actually got meaner once he sobered up. He has almost no redeeming qualities in this book.

It's not like you expect a suddenly appealing side of any of them from the book, but I was quite unprepared for how hateful they all turned out to be. Bob, you understand why that happened. Chris seems to get fed up of it all. But Paul and Tommy behave like complete wankers from early on till late on.

No idea what Paul is really like now. I interviewed them both last year, and Paul was wary, Tommy chatty. Obviously, they're not as uncooperative with anyone and everyone as they were 30 years ago, but there's clearly a deep strain of suspicion of people's motives running strongly in Paul.

well, R.E.M. totally Played The Game and look what flops they were

Bob was doomed, Chris played along until he moved on. Of the two that "survived," Tommy seems to have that boyish rock star charm where you have to take the good with the bad, Paul is a classic strain of ex-alky who doesn't exhibit the most blatant bad behavior but still presents the same paranoia plus personality problems.

Tommy probably made decent money all those years as a member of GN'R. He was in that band (whatever you call it) longer than the Replacements and seemingly had the ability stand up to Axl Rose and not get fired.

The real hero of the book could be Johnette Napolitano from Concrete Blonde. The story of her recording vocals on All Shook Down is hysterical.

Tommy probably made decent money all those years as a member of GN'R. He was in that band (whatever you call it) longer than the Replacements and seemingly had the ability stand up to Axl Rose and not get fired.

― DavidLeeRoth,

one more chance to get it all wrong

I assume Tommy's DGAF attitude helped him navigate Axl road.

I interviewed Paul several times from 1994 til like 2005, and he was wary then, too. There was always lingering bitterness about not having a hit, he has a weird attachment to doing things his way and then expecting a hit to happen. And honestly I think Paul's wariness makes Tommy more wary than he would otherwise be. Tommy always seemed to understand that things would turn out for him--he seems genuinely happier. He was on salary with GnR, it totally saved him.

One of the things I learned from the book was how much Paul allegedly practiced playing guitar and that he had a natural knack for it.

Two weird details about Paul's attitude that I keep coming back to: his sabotage of his relationship with Mo Ostin and the fact that Chris Mars had to sneak out to museums because they were "on tour, ... not tourists."

Man, tales of Steve Hoffman forum has a twelve page thread on this book- see you guys later!

It's probably mostly about the poor sample rate used on the audiobook.

xpost It reminds me a bit of Springsteen, who was a shit-hot guitarist but then spent much of his career simplifying his playing. In his own way, he, too, like Paul was given "permission" by punk to not show off.

It really does read like Paul was standard issue bully/class clown, hampered by low self-esteem and in turn lashing out/self-sabotaging/goading others. He's definitely gifted, but also weirdly and very self-awarely contrarian (not unlike Alex Chilton, for probably similar reasons). For all their issues, Tommy and Bob come off the most positive, maybe because they really don't care and are happy to be along for the ride, at least for a while, with Chris the most "normal," possibly because he has interests outside the band. But Paul, he does care, just not consistently, and often at the wrong time, bad traits exacerbated by his alcoholism, depression, etc..

Well, if Westerberg's so good why are his leads on PTMM so dull? That was my thought when I read that section.

Think he was a good rhythm guitarist but yeah those leads on that album are a snooze.

I still haven't figured out how to play "Answering Machine" after like 30 years of trying, so he must have had some tricks up his sleeve...

It's probably mostly about the poor sample rate used on the audiobook.

Bob Stinson to me, unlike Paul, was a PURE lead player...rather than a rhythm guitarist playing some professional sounding but uninspired leads

I'm thinking of that utterly demented lead before the break in "We're Comin' Out"... I don't think Westerberg could ever come up with something like that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biPWphtNSXE

Singer-songwriters of Paul's personality type are a dime a dozen. They just generally don't get famous outside of your town.

(Extraordinary talent included in this analysis.)

Is it worth comparing him to another such fellow who was better able to rein in his self-destructive side and cash in on his pretensions?

I'm talking to you Napoleon Dynamite.

( insert comma appropriately)

Thank you for talking to me Napoleon Dynamite

lol

I disagree that every town has a Paul Westerberg. They may all have a Replacements, or ragged bar band, but he has this uncanny ability to stumble onto some really great lyrics and heartfelt music. He has a number of songs that caught me on first listen and stuck with me for life, which is more than I can say for 95% of the bands/singer-songwriters I hear. Now, if you told me every city had, say, a Shawn Colvin, sure. But Paul Westerberg? More uncommon, unless you're talking about the dozens of singers in his wake that owe him something.

Has any other band been as plagued by press about how they should have been big? It seemed like every article about them from Tim onward had this "Why aren't they as popular as REM?" angle. Not sure if the writers picked this up from Westerburg, or if having writers constantly assuring him that the band had hit potential pushed him toward that ambition.

Well, sort of like Husker Du, they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Certainly the success of Soul Asylum and Goo Goo Dolls - and both were *really* successful - proved that. Bad timing, like the bit in the book where the guy dismisses Tim as too rough around the edges to get played on the radio, and then years later dismissed All Shook Down for being too slick to get played on the radio.