ILM music making thread for techno and other Ableton/Reason/Reaktor/whatever based questions and chat

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it's sort of weird, because I am not an expert in either Ableton or Reaktor, but basically when I go to set up my plug-ins by pressing the plug-in icon, I'm not sure how to make it recognise Reaktor so it comes up there, or to make Ableton recognise it as a VST. I'm not sure how to set up a place for Ableton to look for plugins, or how to just tell it that Reaktor is one!

― Ronan, Monday, 9 April 2007 22:28 (nineteen years ago)

Oh! Huh: I've never known Rewire to make anything show up as a VST before -- usually the other source would just appear in the drop-down input list on your Ableton tracks. (That's how I use Ableton and Reason, for instance.) But I'm not working with the latest versions of these things, and I've never had Reaktor, so ... never mind what I said above, I guess.

― nabisco, Monday, 9 April 2007 22:34 (nineteen years ago)

Oh ok, maybe I'm asking stupid questions, do you mean it would appear with instruments or something? Or somewhere else? it doesn't have to appear as a VST, sorry I'm possibly punching above my weight here.

― Ronan, Monday, 9 April 2007 22:36 (nineteen years ago)

What do you want to do with it? Maybe you could just export shit as wav files and import into Ableton?

― Jordan, Monday, 9 April 2007 22:39 (nineteen years ago)

Oh wait -- a bit of googling suggests that Rewire should not be involved in this process at all. According to a couple forum threads, you should just be able to use Reaktor as a VSTi in Live, straight up, no Rewire involved.

(But just to clarify what I meant about Rewire: say you're using Ableton as your master program and, say, Reason as the slave. On each Ableton track, there's the little drop-down for "input" -- it would have options like "no input," your sound card, "resampling," and then it'd show "Reason." And then you could specify any of those 1-60 output lines on the Reason bus thing. So not on the left under instruments / plug-ins / etc., but the actual track input thing.)

― nabisco, Monday, 9 April 2007 22:42 (nineteen years ago)

thing is, I know I can play Reaktor as a VST in Ableton, and this seems the easiest way to do it. I know from talking to others that this works but can't seem to calibrate it myself...so I guess I just need someone who has a PC and has done this to say "YES this is how".

― Ronan, Monday, 9 April 2007 22:54 (nineteen years ago)

what I want to do at the moment is basically "screw around", I wish there was a more linear way to get into production, but I guess I am just kind of learning as slowly as I can, trying not to be overwhelmed.

― Ronan, Monday, 9 April 2007 22:54 (nineteen years ago)

that's the best way to do it ronan, go slow and don't expect immediate gratification.

not to complicate things more but i use native instruments' massive as a soft synth and it's great. it comes with tons of presets: huge analog saws, sci fi pads, sub bass. every preset can be heavily modded using the same 8 macro rotary controls which is handy when you don't know jack shit about fm synthesis (like me).

the demo's worth trying:
http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=massive_us

― The Macallan 18 Year, Monday, 9 April 2007 22:59 (nineteen years ago)

ronan,

You need to figure out where abelton is looking for vst plug ins. Most likely, you will look in one of the abelton folders and you will see a folder that says "vst" or something to that effect. The next step is to move a copy of reaktor into this folder. you will be looking for a .dll file, which is the actual code for the plug in.

Once you have the .dll file in the correct folder(the folder where Live looks for plug ins) you need to refresh the plug in list on the left hand side. If you did it right, you should see reaktor in directory of third party vst plug ins.

Once you figure out where to put reaktor, you might want to delete the old instance from your HD and just reinstall Reaktor into the proper folder. You will also want to put it in it's own folder(within the vst folder) so that you can organize all your patches and sub folders in one place.

― Display Name, Monday, 9 April 2007 23:00 (nineteen years ago)

bingo, thanks a lot Mike.

And The Macallan 18 Year, that sounds good, I must try and check out Massive.

― Ronan, Monday, 9 April 2007 23:06 (nineteen years ago)

"what I want to do at the moment is basically "screw around", I wish there was a more linear way to get into production, but I guess I am just kind of learning as slowly as I can, trying not to be overwhelmed."

That is why I recommend starting with a single piece of hardware and spending a few months really getting to know how it works. By the time you have saved up for the next piece you should know your old one pretty well. I would recommend picking up a second hand Roland R8mkII or R70 and just spend a few month learning how to write drums. You could buy a synth instead and spend a few months learning synthesis and how to write and play parts.

Computers with cracked vst's and hardware instruments are like the difference between getting an acoustic guitar for Christmas and getting an entire 5 player band set up and a full 24 track recording studio on Christmas morning. It is cool to have all that sonic potential all at once, but it kind of fucks you up as a musician because it requires a lot more dicipline to concentrate on the fundamentals that actualy make your music worth listening to.

― Display Name, Monday, 9 April 2007 23:15 (nineteen years ago)

Why has my computer suddenly decided it doesn't have the drivers for my Edirol UA-20 soundcard? I only unplugged it and back in again. Is it cos I plugged it into a different USB port or what?

― the next grozart, Monday, 9 April 2007 23:53 (nineteen years ago)

All good points Mike, I guess it's too tempting to try and just make a track, rather than try and understand what I'm doing! It is quite expensive to go down the hardware route though.

― Ronan, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 00:11 (nineteen years ago)

Grozart -- yes, try the original port. I have zero idea why, but some devices install in that weird port-specific way.

Ronan -- don't necessarily shy away from trying to make tracks, too! I mean, one of the main ways you'll learn about the software is by running into roadblocks in that process ("this synth pad doesn't sound the way I want!"), and being forced to learn the right techniques to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish ("aha, this fixes it!"). It's more a matter of remembering that you're only trying to make the track, and you're not actually expecting to get there yet. A good blend of track-making and going back to the manual when you get stuck ... that tends to do it.

Macallan -- learning about synthesis is seriously not as complicated as some people make it sound! Just go to a page that explains all the different paramaters, sit down in front of the computer, and play with each value as you read about what it does. Doing either one of those things in isolation isn't so helpful, but when you can read what the thing is doing and hear it happening at the same time, it all comes clear very quickly.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 00:57 (nineteen years ago)

P.S. I know I'm always all about Reason, but the Reason Subtractor is really good for sorting out how synthesis works -- just read through the manual's explanations of what each thing does and futz with it at the same time. Things like ASDR envelopes sound really complicated when someone tries to explain them in words, but they're incredibly simple and straightforward.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 01:00 (nineteen years ago)

Ronan -- don't necessarily shy away from trying to make tracks, too! I mean, one of the main ways you'll learn about the software is by running into roadblocks in that process ("this synth pad doesn't sound the way I want!"), and being forced to learn the right techniques to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish ("aha, this fixes it!"). It's more a matter of remembering that you're only trying to make the track, and you're not actually expecting to get there yet. A good blend of track-making and going back to the manual when you get stuck ... that tends to do it.

Absolutely OTM. So many would-be producers fall into the trap of constantly messing around with gear/software and techniques, but never producing any finished music. It's well worth getting into the habit of trying to write finished stuff now, instead of just tinkering and learning.

Mike's advice is spot on too, but there's no reason you can't adopt that approach using a computer rather than a hardware synth or drum-machine. I'd recommend that you forget about Reaktor for now, and just concentrate on working with what you have available to you in Ableton. Assuming you're using the (ahem) 'demo' version, you'll already have a decent synth (Operator) and sampler (Sampler) available to you. Run through the built-in Ableton tutorials, and you should know enough to start writing a basic track. Once you start feeling limited by the instruments and effects provided by Ableton, you can start thinking about Reaktor. Until then, you're just complicating the whole process for yourself.

― jng, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 02:06 (nineteen years ago)

Nabisco is right. Basic subtractive synthesis isn't that hard to get your head around.

osc-->filter-->EG--> psychedelic drug noise coming out of your speakers...

Pretty much the only x-factor that makes things more complicated are the different modulators and the effects they produce on different parts of the signal chain. The main thing with the EG is to remember that a synth can really only produce four catagories of sound and that they are all basically produced by one of four EG settings.

When you start getting into FM, Wavetable, and Additive, that is when things start getting a little more difficult.

― Display Name, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 02:11 (nineteen years ago)

Mike's advice is spot on too, but there's no reason you can't adopt that approach using a computer rather than a hardware synth or drum-machine. I'd recommend that you forget about Reaktor for now, and just concentrate on working with what you have available to you in Ableton. Assuming you're using the (ahem) 'demo' version, you'll already have a decent synth (Operator) and sampler (Sampler) available to you. Run through the built-in Ableton tutorials, and you should know enough to start writing a basic track. Once you start feeling limited by the instruments and effects provided by Ableton, you can start thinking about Reaktor. Until then, you're just complicating the whole process for yourself.

The beauty of Ableton is that there is no reason why you cannot make complete tracks using nothing but the stock instruments and effects. Everything in that program can be used and is high quality. I would recommend getting a basic subtractive vst and using that instead of operator, but that is just me. I use Ableton and a few third party VST's and that is about it.

The big thing is to hold off on Reaktor *or* Ableton because you are biting off way more than you can chew. I have been doing this since 95 and I would not consider myself minimally competent in reaktor in less than three months of daily work. You could spend three months learning Reaktor but you aren't going to have much music to show for it. The thing to work on is music itself, and Ableton is going to offer the least resistance in term of the interface. You can start working immediately in Ableton.

Another thing you might want to start off with is a copy of Soundforge and Ableton. You might want to start off doing a few edits before you write your own material. It will give you a better idea of the workflow in ableton and it will give you a better understanding of how to structure a song. You might want to take a track that you really like, hack it up into sections, and then arrange those sections in the different song styles. You will get passable results much quicker that way, and it will not be so immediately discouraging.
Unless you are a godlike genius, you're going to suck for a long time and it is going to be 95% hate and 5% love.

― Display Name, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 02:37 (nineteen years ago)

You might want to start off doing a few edits before you write your own material.

Super good advice that I am currently following.

― The Macallan 18 Year, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 02:53 (nineteen years ago)

Awesome timing finding this thread. I'm just now trying to feel my way into this kind of music making. All I know is straight piano playing, so this is all a bit overwhelming for me right now. I have Reason and a laptop, and thats about it. I need a usb controller kbd i think. I found Reason very convoluted and confusing, because I couldnt work out how to easily just doodle melodies after laying down a rhythm. So I've fallen back to Fruityloops just to get my head round the basics, is that a wise move?

Should I buy an external soundcard/controller box dealie?

― Trayce, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 03:59 (nineteen years ago)

a lot of ableton peoples swear by the notavion remote 25SL. if it's keys, knobs, sliders and a touchpad that you want this is probably going to do it for you.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--NOVREMOTE25SL

― The Macallan 18 Year, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 04:22 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah I figured Ableton is the one to learn, being easier and all. I guess the reason I started veering towards Reaktor is I spent a long time making a decent drumbeat in Ableton and tweaking it around, and then when I wanted to put synths in all the Ableton ones sounded kinda shit. But maybe this can be changed with fx and stuff in Ableton...or just by downloading better samples for a start.

So maybe if someone had some good suggestions on a simpler way to use synths, even some good vsts that will work nicely with Ableton and aren't too hard to use.

Thanks again for the advice. I figure it's a bit like going through the pain barrier everyday, just forcing myself to learn something!

― Ronan, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 08:43 (nineteen years ago)

i'd stick with ableton primarily for now if i were you ronan, particularly because you can use it for mixes as well as tracks. its a pretty good way of setting up and building tracks, getting the discipline of how a track should be constructed....and it doesnt really matter if it doesnt sound very interesting, its good discipline because its *structure*

reaktor is just like a sea of endlessness. it might be worth playing with reaktor by itself and as a vst in ableton *for now*

that way you can separate out the making tracks and discipline and structure, when you do ableton

and the figuring out how things work with reaktor

and gradually bring the two ends together later on

― 600, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 08:54 (nineteen years ago)

sorry, that should say use reaktor standalone NOT as vst ---- for learning purposes, so you dont get sidetracked

bring it into ableton later

though sounds generated in reaktor can be played straight into ableton. but getting step sequencers to trigger properly at the right time in their clips....isnt as straightforward as it should be. and you're probably going to want to use this for your drum patterns

― 600, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 08:57 (nineteen years ago)

sorry not speaking very well today. what i mean is reaktor as standalone and as vst are going to be pretty much the same when its synths, but it can be fiddly with the step sequencers. but the benefit of doing reaktor standalone is that you can concentrate on a particular sound, and sound building, without one eye on 'the track'.

― 600, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 09:01 (nineteen years ago)

Does anyone recommend any websites that have decent tutes on this kind of thing?

― Trayce, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 11:00 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I'd like to read and watch videos about how to use Ableton in the simplest terms possible, are there many out there?

― NI, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 12:40 (nineteen years ago)

Currently I swear by Mixmeister Fusion but I want to test out Ableton too. Has anyone here used both? How do they compare?

― NI, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 12:42 (nineteen years ago)

never used mixmeister fusion

if you want videos, askvideo.com do an ableton video, its pretty watchable

actually i must send this to you ronandinho gaucho

― 600, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 12:43 (nineteen years ago)

― Ronan, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 12:48 (nineteen years ago)

Also you guys know we have a board for this stuff, right: http://www.ilxor.com:8080/ILX/NewAnswersControllerServlet?boardid=45

― Jordan, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 14:09 (nineteen years ago)

Ha, I used to feel like this thread was a slap in the face of IMM, but lately it doesn't seem so horrible for the "how do I learn Live" questions to go somewhere else.

To continue with my Reason pimpery, I seriously recommend it as a good way to learn how to use this sort of software in general. It's very straightforward to start drum programming with it; the modular set-up teaches you via simple visual representation how different objects affect one another; and maybe most importantly the synth parameters are all laid out right in front of you and inviting to play with. (I think a lot of people don't take to Reason because the synth presets sound dinky straight out of the box, but that's precisely what teaches you to play with the parameters and create your own. Live's synths sound good straight out of the box, and their parameters have a tougher learning curve, so a lot of people seem to just use the presets and turn out stuff that sounds ... umm, boring. I mean, art is art and whatnot, and maybe you can turn out great stuff with the presets, just following what they can already do for you -- but really, if you're going to have synths in your songs you 95% have to learn to tweak that stuff yourself.)

― nabisco, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

i wanna make a hoover bassline. someone tell me how to do it. for free! on a shitty computer! c'mon!

― GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:07 (nineteen years ago)

I honestly didn't know about IMM until I started this thread, I know I should have, but I always forget to check the other boards besides ILE and ILM

― Ronan, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:12 (nineteen years ago)

i wanna make a hoover bassline. someone tell me how to do it. for free! on a shitty computer! c'mon!

-- GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Tuesday, April 10, 2007 12:07 PM (9 minutes ago)

― deej, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:17 (nineteen years ago)

Okay, you're gonna need a shotgun mic, a vacuum cleaner, and some lube.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 18:13 (nineteen years ago)

vaseline?

― deej, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 18:22 (nineteen years ago)

im just curious as to what you guys are aiming to do with the remixes/re-edits that you're making? is it just for a bit of fun to pass time or are you aiming to use them to get signed or commissioned to do remixes, or some other reason?

― s.rose, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 18:52 (nineteen years ago)

Why does anyone make music?

― jng, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:00 (nineteen years ago)

I think the discussion above was about doing remixes and edits as a way of (a) learning how to use the software and (b) learning how to work with song structure and movement.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:17 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, but what is the long term goal if there is one? im not asking this in a 'wot u wasting yr time for' way, im genuinely curious as to the aims and motivations of each person who has posted on here about creating music or making remixes or re-edits.

― s.rose, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:42 (nineteen years ago)

i want to be a millionaire

― deej, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:45 (nineteen years ago)

everyone who knows how to do a thing...didnt once upon a time

― 600, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 21:26 (nineteen years ago)

As far as edits go, I've only done one and it is because I love a song but it is only 107 bpm. It is an old disco tune with live drums and bad tape edits. It's one of my favorite songs but it is too slow to play in public and it is a bitch to mix. I wanted it faster and I wanted the drums locked up. I sampled the 12", cut it up in soundforge, dumped it into ableton. It is now 122bpm and the drums are tight.

I don't plan on pressing it or giving it out. I really love the song and I want to be able to include it in my DJ sets without having to make a huge programming detour.

― Display Name, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 00:19 (nineteen years ago)

I make re-edits to DJ out with. To either 'fix' a track by chopping crummy bits out or to spend time making a segue that would be impossible to achieve live.

― NI, Thursday, 12 April 2007 01:48 (nineteen years ago)

Pretty simple query this time. Say I'm making a drumbeat, a slight variation of one I've done already, but want to record it in a different channel, so that I can play it and the one I've already done simultaneously, and also EQ them differently and use different effects.

When I do copy and paste, it appears in another channel without machine attached to it. And I can't seem to copy and paste the machine.

Is the only way to do this to copy and paste it as a clip into a different channel in arrangement view?

I'm pretty sure there may be basic misunderstanding of the best way to layout tracks in the software at work here! But can someone help? Thanks.

Also for those who are interested, here is a draft of the first track I've made, been working pretty hard.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:14 (nineteen years ago)

Hi Ronan

One way would be to record it as an audio clip.

1 Disable any effects you don't want on the new track.

2 Create a new audio track.

3 Set the 'Audio to' bit of the I/O section of the original Midi track to the new audio track.

4 Arm the new audio track to record.

5 Start recording and play the original clip in the midi track. You can start them in sync by having them both in the same slot and using the play slot button on the right, but you don't have to, cos you can set the start and finish markers in the audio clip later.

There you go. You'll then have an audio clip of the drum part that sounds identical to the midi clip, and you can then add your FX and EQ and so on. Hope that made sense. It takes less memory doing it that way, too.

If you want the new track to be a midi track, though, I'm sure you can do it, but I'm not sure how. I think you can save a track with all its instruments and settings, which is in the edit menu, probably. You then just load it up as a new midi track and then copy your clip across.

― Jamie T Smith, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:50 (nineteen years ago)

save that instance of the drum sampler as a patch and then drop that patch in another midi channel and then cut and paste the patterns into the new channel.

It should also be mentioned that having two exact copies of the same audio can introduce phase problems. You might want to write a separate part and just process the hell out of that.

― Display Name, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:58 (nineteen years ago)

it's not necessarily the same audio, it's more like, I built a kit I like and a good pattern out of it and don't want to have to assemble the kit again. I guess I could save the kit and just do the new part in a separate channel. Seems easier just to be able to copy stuff with the kit and all into a new channel.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:22 (nineteen years ago)

another option: save the kit as a preset, click the little floppy disk icon on impulse. drag that preset into a new midi track. copy/paste your midi clip into the new channel.

OR

drag the entire thing into ableton's browser and save it that way. i do this all the time. saves me tons of time later if i want to add old drum patterns to a new project.

re the edit/remixes question:
like nabiscotm said i'm doing it to learn the program and how to arrange tracks. in long term i'm doing it to get my dj name out there circulating and maybe maybe maybe get a few gigs out of it. but maybe that's unrealistic, what with the volume of people out there doing the exact same thing as myself.

― The Macallan 18 Year, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:16 (nineteen years ago)

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