Is Everybody Who Edits the Village Voice Really This Stupid?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (707 of them)

Yeah, the Top 40 way. That is a way, yes?

I'd have to disagree.

― Larcole (Nicole), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Chuck benefits from a slippage in the word "rock"--I guess a lot of people do. I tend to think this whole vein of criticism benefits a lot from not pinning down words. You can see this as a bad or good thing. There's certainly a kind of frisson that develops as a result of the resulting ambiguities and disagreements. But I feel like it's a little intellectually dishonest (is the Voice intellectual? are friends 'electric'?) to maintain the slippage by design. Maybe I'm just too literal-minded. So you'll pardon me a little logical exercise:

"Rock" can just be an objective assessment ("Scott Walker does not rock") or a subjective one ("Scott Walker ROCKS!") or I suppose one can split the word into two meanings and claim what Chuck occasionally implies--that to ROCK (in the subjective sense) something has to rock (in the objective sense, which remains sketchily defined except for Mr. Diamond's helpful spin). So is he saying that Drag City does not rock (objectively) or that it does not ROCK (subjectively)? Or that it does not ROCK because it does not rock?

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

You can't 'rock-out' in a 'knowing' way.

― doom-e, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

by "split the word into two meanings" I meant "FUSE the two meanings into one."

Sorry, that botched sentence was the result of a few hasty revisions.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe I should have put an "either" in there.

― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

dude, thinking totally DOESNT rock

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

like, you can't own anything, man....simplify!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck's argument is hilarious, since DC specializes in music that never claims to be rawk n roll. Talk about an argument that has no balls, calling out Drag City for not releasing rock music. Maybe if he bitched about SFTRI and how they didn't rock, that would be shocking and interesting. Plus considering the large number of popular indie labels that DO rock, it seems a bit fascist to point out one that doesn't and doesn't pretend to.

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

like, Dischord doesn't Adult Contemporary.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 17:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe if he bitched about SFTRI and how they didn't rock, that would be shocking and interesting.

But no one would even care and you wouldn't get the pissy indignant bitching evidenced on this thread.

― Larcole (Nicole), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Amateurist the only reason I got surly with you on that other thread (which I regret, but I was getting irritated) is because I thought you were being disingenuous. I mean, you're one of the smartest people around here, and I know you've read books of musicology, etc., where writers reference music as being "hot", "cool", "swinging" and so on. I would have thought that you would at least give CE the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he knows what he means when he writes something similar.

I mean, I would have expected hstencil to start this thread (surely a "shockah" if there ever was one). I didn't expect the attitudes displayed towards CE's writing from you, especially when you admit that you've hardly read him. The fact is that CE's been a high-profile writer for, what, well over 15 years now. He's written two books that lay out his aesthetic. At a certain point a writer has "earned the right" (tm) to employ an endemic, consistent stylistic trope and not be saddled with constant explication. Do you make the same criticism of the film writers you hold dear when they make use of similar tics? I mean, maybe you do, I don't know! If Roger Ebert showed up on ILF and started making posts using, I dunno, whatever superwords Ebert uses, would you badger him as preciously?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

also, there should be an ILx drinking game that involves malapropisms of "fascist".

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I think if Ceddy came out and talked about how Sympathy for the Record Industry hated rock and didn't rock, it would be an interesting stance. This DC argument is like critiquing a Chinese restaurant by saying the owners hate pizza. Of course they don't hate pizza! They just don't happen to make it.

Jesus I'm hungry.

And Roger Ebert deserves badgering for giving a thumbs down to Rushmore and thumbs up to Tomb Raider 2, that fascist bastard *swig*

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I luvs drag city and don't think the brooks and dunn is quite as good as some think, but there ain't anything on dc that approaches rocking even half as much as red dirt road. but there's too many acts that say they do.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

"Rock-hating" just seems a bit extreme. Even if Chuck doesn't think any of DC's records "rock" or contain what he considers to be "rock" music, I'm surprised he feels they "hate" rock and/or rocking. Because clearly they don't.

― Sam J. (samjeff), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

can the dc defenders actually put up an argument besides "do not!"?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Clearly not.

― Larcole (Nicole), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Drag City:rock::yogurt:ice cream

I like yogurt. I like Drag City. But I never get cravings for either of them. (on the other hand, I agree it's kind of silly to argue that yogurt hates ice cream -- the reverse might be more nearly true -- but it makes for a nice bit of arch commentary which I assume is all that was actually intended)

― JesseFox (JesseFox), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Look, I never even said that hating rock was necessarily a BAD thing, did I? Sometimes *I* hate rock. My POINT (inasmuch as there was one) was that I'm very surprised that Drag City Records (who I have nothing especially against, believe it or not -- I mean, sometimes I *like* lo-fi piddle and bullshit -- I even like a couple Smog songs, for crissakes, and I still own my copy of *Demolition Plot J-7*!; {wait was that on Drag City or only *Perfect Sound Forever*? I forget}), that Drag City put out an album by a band who appear unarguably (and apparently unironically, though that's hardly the point, not to mention hardly provable) a ROCK BAND. Not even a great one, as it turns out; a pretty okay one, though. And one that most *mainstream* rock fans from the '70s to the '00s, from Cactus fans to Matchbox 20 fans, would think of as a rock band if they actually heard the record as well. (Which I'm guessing, maybe wrongly, you couldn't say about Royal Trux or Fucking Champs.) Again, I'm not even talking value judgements here; I'm talking about A KIND OF MUSIC DRAG CITY HAS ALWAYS SEEMED (TO ME, ANYWAY) TO AVOID. Which kind of music sometimes rocks, and sometimes does not. (So yeah, "rocking" is an actual thing music DOES; it has to do with rhythm and energy and volume and velocity and momentum, and I've written several thousand words explaining it in my life. And in the past 30 years, non-rock musics like disco and rap and techno and Latin and country and teen-pop and r&b and adult contemporary have often rocked harder than Rock Bands With Guitars, okay? Though again, Drag City seems to avoid both the noun AND the verb. Which just means that's their aesthetic, which is fine! But it's ALSO why it's surprising to see a rock band on their label? Isn't that, like, fucking obvious??) As for Ghost, who I like, I forgot them. I guess OLD music might be allowed to rock on Drag City now and then, as long as it's by crazy Japanese hippies. (Though actually, I think I like Ghost more for being beautiful than for rocking, which I'm not sure they do, though I'll take Scott Seward's word for it for right now since he's a genius.) (As for "Top 40", no, it is NOT a "way" of rocking. Though it might well be *several* ways of rocking. And several ways of not-rocking, for that matter. When it doesn't.) Anyway, I hope I answered everybody's questions. You are all free, now, to go back to hating whatever you hate.

― chuck, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Oops, I said "?" when I meant "!" somewhere in that spiel. Oh well.

― chuck, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, James, here's my "defense": many of Royal Trux's records (a) are totally "rock," as far as I "classify" it, and (b) for me, they tototally "rock," in all the ways I find the James Gang and Humble Pie and whoever to "rock" (except I find the Trux a lot more exciting and musical and "rocking"). What more do you want to hear?

― Sam J. (samjeff), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I think people have put up arguments aside from that. Besides, no proof exists that they do so the argument has basically been won.

Big difference between not releasing rock because you specialize in other forms or music and actually hating rock.

any argument that essentially says "they do" will likely a lot of "they do not" responses. Shore up your own argument a bit.

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

ok, what if a label releases an album that purports to be 'good old rock n roll' and is instead tired ass hackneyed shit - is it fair to think the label is saying 'good old rock n roll' = tired ass hackneyed shit, and is it fair to think 'gee, maybe they hate rock'?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Uh, James - "Louisa La Rey" (on that album) is like one of the most awesomest rockin' tunes I know.

― Sam J. (samjeff), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

(but it doesn't sound like AC/DC!)

― Sam J. (samjeff), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

>>ok, what if a label releases an album that purports to be 'good old rock n roll' and is instead tired ass hackneyed shit - is it fair to think the label is saying 'good old rock n roll' = tired ass hackneyed shit, and is it fair to think 'gee, maybe they hate rock'?<

Well, maybe they DO hate rock. So who cares if it's "fair"??

― chuck, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

sigh

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Though maybe it's GOOD, ROCKING tired-ass hackneyed shit, you know?

― chuck, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

what about the Lynnfield Pioneers?

― dave q, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

what about them?

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:25 (twenty-two years ago)

The Lynfield Pioneers should have been shot like dogs. That is all I have to say.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

well from the one ghost record I've heard (Temple stone on PSF) ghost are into droning sounds and english folk music. maybe they have made really diff recs since then.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

They've done all sorts, Mr. Julio, trust me...refer to the AMG for my various rants. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, Ghost seemed like droning folks to me, too. As for Lynfield Pioaneers, I kinda liked that Popcorn album or whatever it was called that they did on Matador. They sounded like they should've come from Cleveland or something. When were they are Drag City? Or weren't they?

― chuck, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think they ever were. All I know is I saw them opening for Chris Knox one night and I still curse them for the hour wasted.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Khakis rock, according to that one Gap commercial from a few years ago that used "Busy Child" by The Crystal Method.

― felicity (felicity), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

So do Crystal Method, actually. (Hi Felicity!)

― chuck, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

connundrum - d.c. does not rock except for ghost, you know, the drone-folk band from japan. well, the album they did with the ex-galaxie 500 crew did not rock. put tht in yer quantifier.

― doom-e, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I was as surprised as anyone when the Ghost show i mentioned turned out to be such a rockfest. No drones. No gongs. just amazingly tight songs and friggin' atounding hard rock guitar action. I mean it was perfect in a way. kinda like how High Rise can just plug in and stand there and blow your mind without even sweating. But Ghost do different sets depending upon their mood. it's definitely up there with the ten or twenty best live shows i've ever seen.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

am i missing a completely rockin' ghost album here folks? inform me.

― doom-e, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

am being serious. but for now, what i think it will sound like will qualify.

― doom-e, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe the album in question simply blows. I just don't see any rock-hating myself, just an absence of rock.

Quite likely a rock band might not want to sign onto DC anyway, for fear of being mistaken as another Will Oldham side project.

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

that reminds me- i like wayne and kate and twisted village, etc, etc, they are cool folks- but they opened up this high rise show i saw ( and they opened that ghost show too ) and wayne's on stage doing his rock god solos flipping and flopping until it looks like he's gonna have a heart attack.everyone was digging it but not going crazy. they leave-high rise get on stage-turn on their amps-and just floor the entire crowd without moving a muscle. it was quite the study in contrasts.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

just use the homer litmus test. "when my head goes from side-to-side" it means, don't stop the rock. "when my head goes up and down it means ... yes, don't stop the rock"

now, what about a rockin' ghost album - would it pass the homer litmus test?

― doom-e, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

that Ghost show was unlike any record i have by them and any other live show i had seen.but they can rock on record. i would love to have that show on record.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Cool. Hey. Isnt the guy who started the thread Smog's US Tour Manager? Conflict-of-interest, there???

― doom-e, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

By the way, this column-about-singles I wrote in the Voice a while back begins with my favorable review of a Drag City record which I like (though I can't remember right now if it rocks or not. So there):

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0113/eddy.php

― chuck, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

that night at least they were like the world's greatest arena/hard rock/psych band playing for 150 drunk louts in philly.

Hey Doom-e, do you like Sour Vein? Or have you heard them? I never have, and it turns out that one of my best friends from high school is their guitarist. they have an album on Southern Lord, I think.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

"rocking" is an actual thing music DOES; it has to do with rhythm and energy and volume and velocity and momentum

Nerdly aside: I wonder if it would be possible to write some kind of computer program that did a spectral analysis on a clip of music and rated it's rockitude on a scale of 1 to 100. It might save music critics a lot of trouble, and there'd be fewer arguments over who does and doesn't rock. (And no, before anyone asks, spectral analysis has nothing to do with ghosts... or Ghost.)

― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't take doom-e seriously?

''They've done all sorts, Mr. Julio, trust me...refer to the AMG for my various rants. ;-)''

nothing like a bit of self-promotion eh?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 607 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.