Prog V3.0 Discussion Thread

wow, didn't see any of this until now, but have to agree w rushomancy and others regarding Camberwell Now. Totally not a part of any group that would include Marillion or IQ. Not musically, ideologically, certainly not popularity-wise. Camberwell Now was more than just This Heat connections, it was basically the next evolution of This Heat (as CN bassist was actually in TH before they folded)-- political avant-prog (or just avant-rock), that was FAR more in step RIO bands like Henry Cow than neo-prog (or likeminded bands such as Red Balune mentioned above, or their label mates Kontakt Mikrofoon Orkest and the Black Sheep).

Neo-prog always seemed kind of a joke to me. Granted, I wasn't old enough to appreciate bringing back of the old prog guard in the 80s, so by the time I heard, it just seemed pointless and sad, especially compared to bands I actually did like from the 80s....like This Heat and Camberwell Now! Don't get me wrong, there is something to be said about finding threads in genres/scenes that most people don't hear/acknowledge (my pet thread is between Magma and minimalists like Meredith Monk) -- but on this one, to me, there's too much a gulf in not just the way the bands sound, but in their approaches/reasons for making music in the first place.

agree - I'm way, way more into stuff like Camberwell Now but for better or worse this thread was started for prog qua prog, the dubious effete cape-wearing wacko stargazing nonsense that people still make for baffling reasons

MIND YOU

stuff like Deluge Grander rises above the majority of neo-prog by using techniques inspired by the likes of Magma and other avant-prog groups - there is a grey area and I think the grey area belongs here

and then I do wonder which other threads we have for RIO or Zeuhl V3.0…I can't think of many…

I am basically down with qualmsley's attempts to redefine prog as the Fiery Furnaces or whatever, but I am concerned that this thread might have a narrower remit. What do you all think - free-for-all or keep it Marillion?

I always lean towards more inclusive.

But why on earth is "effete" or "wacko stargazing" used as in insult?

I have very few horses in this race, seems like this thread's open-ended format would serve an inclusive free-for-all bent that invites weird juxtapositions like reggie's whereas the publication/periodical nature of tQ articles (and the necessarily self-containdness of their structures) probably benefit from a more focussed, less encompassing approach

Martin Orford from IQ has repeatedly said he hates that people changed the name of New Wave Of Prog Rock to Neo-Prog, that you shouldn't be able to rename a genre a decade later. I think he's probably right in that the "new wave" part is important because the new wave influence is obvious.

But why on earth is "effete" or "wacko stargazing" used as in insult?

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, October 31, 2015 2:10 PM (33 minutes ago)

tis affectionate

rushomancy that is a rad jam, thanks for posting

i am not trying to claim here that "Neo-prog" doesn't / didn't exist as a category of discrete groups -- marillion, pallas, IQ, etc -- or that Neo-prog groups are 'good' in the same way that CAMBERWELL NOW is 'good'

i'm thinking not of Neo-prog exclusively, but of "neo-prog" -- no capital N -- a much larger tent . . . sort of the way we talk about "neo-psych" (no capital N) -- which includes everything from the paisley underground, to elephant 6, to freak folk, to comets on fire and six organs of admittance and ghost and billions of other bands that formed after 1969 which involve in some awesome way a psych influence . . . the discussion of which doesn't seem to provoke as much strict border talk, but tends to be more expansive and inclusive, and is all the more informative (to me) for that

i say we go free-for-all because i have very little to say on the topic of marillion. i do think orford otm in that nwopr or nwop seems a more appropriate name for the music than "neo", here apparently used in its traditional context meaning "not", in that trying to assess iq, pallas, etc., without reference to the preceding nwobhm denies the movement its proper historical context, and if you're going to talk about genre at all you really ought to bring in historical context.

the idea of a "big-tent" prog certainly massively appeals to me, but the issue is that you're trying to redefine an existing word that has significant cultural baggage to describe this larger movement, and my feeling is, you know, why can't we just call it all "prog" and be done with it?

Hurrah!

Now, here's a little prog selection from a sports legend…

http://www.teamrock.com/features/2015-10-10/the-10-best-prog-rock-songs-by-steve-davis

Obviously it's full of Genesis and Floyd

steve davis otm

The next Thumpermonkey album is going to be fucking amazing btw, based on what I saw live a while back

I guess that brings us back to 3.0.

little more into the GRAILS / MASTER MUSICIANS of BUKKAKE spaghetti western noir vibes of the first song on the new TEETH of the SEA than the WIRE drilling of the second song, but digging how it settles into something mellower / LIARS-like for "field punishment"

I discovered Baron via a recommendation from Wolf People. Those of you into new psych prog, other favorites include Spirits Of The Dead, Syd Arthur, Messenger, Fuzz Manta, Fellwoods, Amplifier, Knifeworld, Yamantaka // Sonic Titan, Kama Loka, Electric Orange, Atavismo. I did a rundown of Baron and others in my crassly named piece below.

http://fastnbulbous.com/progasms-progressive-rock-rundown/

http://fastnbulbous.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/proggasms-2015.jpg

xp frogbs, I'm sorry I didn't check out Echolyn before I did my piece. Them being a favorite next to Motorpsycho certainly perked my ears up.

This is a good thread. I've been gradually catching up on modern prog in the past couple years. Favorites so far are Anekdoten, Änglagård and Gazpacho. I have much more listening to go on these, still on the fence -- Kingstom Wall, Riverside, Transatlantic, IQ, Haken, Birds And Buildings, The Pineapple Thief. I like Porcupine Tree, but haven't been feeling solo Steve Wilson so much.

have you heard the new gazpacho, molok? it hasn't quite captivated me yet. there are nice folk vibes going on but sometimes i want the music itself to be more intricate

ah, just clicked on the link now. really interesting run down. i'll give that gazpacho another go or two

So no one is feeling the Baron album? I understand, you're all distracted by the excitement of this release:

http://bravewords.com/medias-static/images/news/2015%20II/wizardsalbumoct.jpg

What do we think about the retelling of very obvious Genesis passages by Big Big Train so audacious that they make early Marillion sound like Neu by comparison?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czgRIvcnTeE

Well, BBT vocalist Dave Longdon almost replaced Phil Collins in Genesis, while drummer Nick D'Virgilio played on the Collins-less tour. Shame that Calling All Stations wasn't anywhere near as solid as English Electric (or Far Skies Deep Time or Underfall Yard for that matter.)

never been big into BIG BIG TRAIN or GENESIS but holy shit at NORTHWINDS and ROUNDTABLE! proceed the weedian! haven't spent time yet with BARON but I am looking forward. thanks for the tips!

how do upsilon acrux, eiko ishibashi & mats&morgan fit in here?

yowie, too, come to think of it

Upsilon Acrux album from early this year (I think) is good

Just started listening to Deluge Grander - August In The Urals. Sounds pretty jam packed, which is promising.

Anyone who liked the Upsilon Acrux album should check out Ahleuchatistas latest album Arrebato, it is really good shit.

The couple of Eiko Ishibashi solo albums I've heard are really good, as well as the one with Tatsuya Yosida. Cursory listens to her latest stuff tell's me she's gone more "indie" but it might be worth investigating more.

ok, have been trying to listen to gazpacho's new one, and that brings me to today's complaint about prog rock. either it is instrumental, or it has really bad vocals. i don't mean that they're particularly bad in a technical sense- whoever it is that's singing can carry a tune all right, i guess. it's just that most "mainstream" prog vocals are so totally lacking in personality i can't listen to it for more than five minutes on end. it's like, prog vocals today seem to combine the worst aspects of "classic rock" vocals and the keening insignificance of landfill indie. when you're going to put out a record with a sense of instrumental variety and, dare i say, adventurousness, why kill it with bland and lifeless singing? seems like these days every prog record i listen to makes me just like father damian more.

I'd agree for the most part but I can usually get along with it if the music is good enough.
I feel most metal vocals are pretty uninspired too, but there are plenty of good vocalists partly due to the sheer number of metal bands.

The current v3.0 vocalists I like tend to be outside the core "we are a prog band for prog fans" type.
I adore Mew's ultra sweet boy vocals.

I agree - definitely an issue with modern prog as a whole. We don't really have a lot of "dedicated singers" anymore like Jon Anderson or Peter Gabriel, instead you get a lot of people who are the creative or instrumental center of their band having to sing because no one else is going to. I think anyone can will themselves into being a good instrumental player but if you can't sing, there's only so much that can be done. Luckily most do get better over time, or there are bands like Glass Hammer that just hire singers as their popularity increases.

a lot of prog vocals is europeans singing english in weird accents, like MEW and AINUR. but yes, there are some singers lacking in personality in contemporary prog, like there are in R&B and country etc; not everyone is thom yorke, mary timony, or jim o'rourke, that's for sure

fastnbulbous finally getting around to listening to BARON. good call (and good vocals!). they kind of remind me of BARONESS; people who go apeshit for GHOST (not batoh's) and GOAT should be all over this though it's less kitschy/b horror movie and way more authentically mystical. dude was in DIAGONAL, right? this is lots dirgier, not as much a virtuoso contrapuntal workout sesh

i listened to baron earlier and those comparisons are self-evidently pure word-association

hey you know who MEW sound like? MUSE! and MÚM!

also fastnbulbous you do god's work but i found precious little in that prog list to really excite me. do i just not like prog as much as i used to

MEW sound nothing like AINUR (an italian RPI band) nor MÚM (pronounced "miooyyuujm"), at least to me, though maybe a little like MUSE at MUSE's best?

BARON have more than a bit of the space-dirgey neo-classic rock vibe BARONESS, GHOST (not batoh's), and GOAT are all delivering, at least compared to the straight up intricate neo-prog of DIAGONAL (a band which current BARON members alex crispin and luke foster used to be in), i'd say. maybe though prog (besides CARDIACS and the like) just isn't self-evidently cool enough anymore, and it should be collapsed into one overarching category, like people do with jazz and metal! all hip, even ‎MC dälek (pronounced "die-a-leck"), sounds the same too!

this is gonna be some proper prog wizard harry potter wands out zing war isn't it

CIRCULUS!

Sundays & Cybele is the only neo-prog thing that FnB mentioned tgat really caused me to double-take, but I havent gotten around tovlistening yet

I really don't listen to much in the way of contemporary prog, it all sounds like lame retreads of music that's decades old. I'd rather listen to the real thing at the end of the day. Saying that though one big problem I have these days is that a lot of groups sound more influenced by neo-prog rather than the proper stuff and come across as too polished and insipid. The one hypocritical exception is Anekdoten, who are sort of borderline bland and definitely retrogressive, but they've got the depressing Scandi vibes which I enjoy.

Oddball metal seems to be scratching my prog itches almost exclusively these days. Can't find much in the way of decent avant-prog these days either. OK I'll stop moaning now.

^p much this

deluge grander's 'inaugural bash' is doubly phenomenal when you consider how it succeeds where so much else fails

I liked that quietus article; I've always been a big marillion fan but for whatever reason never checked out Twelfth Night; they certainly are the VDGG to Marillion's Genesis.

Can't find much in the way of decent avant-prog these days either.

Rhùn aren't bad for a Zeuhl act:
https://rhunmusic.bandcamp.com/

I'm glad I'm not in a position of searching for good new bands in whatever genre. It taken me too long to realise that since I hadn't exhausted the earlier classics and high points then there wasn't much reason to look too hard for new stuff. Obviously it's great when there's an amazing new band but it doesn't feel necessary unless they're really brilliant.

To be honest there's a load of older stuff I've never got around to hearing yet. I only started listening to Yes last year!

Rhun are fine, I've heard them before and they colour inside the lines somewhat zeuhl-wise but thanks.

I doubt anyone here has heard all the 70s stuff they wanted to hear.

xelab otm. "power with" could be BATTLES

been thinking about it, and still not exactly sure what I would classify as prog 3.0. If I'm going in for the concept, it helps me to chart out what would constitute prog 1 & 2--

1.0 - Yes, King Crimson, Genesis, ELP -- basically all the first wave of prog

1.5 - stretching out a bit to include stuff like Soft Machine, krautrock, Brian Eno-related stuff

2.0 - prog that either reacted against the first wave, or did something that made it fundamentally different (albeit still prog): Henry Cow/Art Bears, This Heat, Albert Marcoeur, Etron Fou, Univers Zero, Magma, Cardiacs (a lot of this is just commonly called "avant prog" today, or RIO)

2.5 - stuff that extended prog 2.0 (esp incorporating elements of punk) like Ruins/Koenjihyakkei, Flying Luttenbachers, Zorn/Naked City/Mr. Bungle, math rock, maybe Bob Drake

3.0 - prog that either reacted or fundamentally changed prog 2.0. So that means... probably music that arguably isn't even "prog" in the same way as prog 1.0 was. This could include avant metal like Jute Gyte (but also going back to stuff like Gorguts, and also Orthrelm's OV which is IMO way more prog than metal), wonky electronic stuff like the more outrageous Rustie stuff or bands like Knower, noise/prog hybrids like Zs. Others?

This is how I tend to approach this topic, and the development of prog in general. From my experience, most people duck out at some stage of the game, and settle on their brand of prog (the vast majority of prog fans probably not even venturing into the 2.0 area). Weird outliers are people like Frank Zappa, who might conceivably fit anywhere in prog 1-2, or even King Crimson, who seemed to develop w the times well into the 80s.

on Battles -- definitely prog, but almost like neo-prog 2.0, as I don't think their approach is fundamentally different than what lots of avant prog bands were doing in the 80s (or even 70s, with This Heat)

Where do you include late '70s/early '80s arty pop-rock (frequently made with the help of prog-aligned musicians)? Thinking specifically of Bowie's Berlin albums and Talking Heads' Fear of Music and Remain in Light.