Kamasi Washington - The Epic

i saw wayne shorter at lincoln center a few months ago, where his songs were rearranged for a bigger band which wynton led. it was weird and tasteful. still pretty cool

"Until, like, 2013, fusion jazz was regarded as square, wack, lame beardo shit, and Kamasi and Thundercat made it SUPER COOL AND ACCESSIBLE enough to HELP CHANGE THE SOUND of Flying Lotus (who, like him or not, is making some of the most important and influential electronic music today) and Kendrick Lamar (who, like him or not, is making some of the most important and influential hip-hop music today)"

you are saying here that those guys rendered fusion fashionable in changing what those guys had done. how did they do that? in what way specifically? I do not hear any such thing in the works of Flying Lotus or Kendrick.

I think of spiritual hat jazz and proggy fusion dork jazz as different lineages, although obv there was overlap. Like the Return to Forever records I grew up on are a very different thing (and much less hipster-cool) from the free-er/spacier stuff I associate with spiritual hats.

Until, like, 2013, fusion jazz was regarded as square, wack, lame beardo shit

uh

imo the kind of fusion integrated into the flying lotus and kendrick lamar records has always been super cool

also doesn't wack fusion constitute the sample source of 100000000000000000000 rap songs

Fucking the Numa Numa song was used in a rap song, that doesn't make it cool

Numa Numa was fusion jazz? I knew.

well right, bob james isn't very cool yet either and is v distinct from the fusion that is embedded in flylo and kendrick records

or actually maybe i'm just getting really confused by the use of "cool" in this conversation

Like the Return to Forever records I grew up on are a very different thing (and much less hipster-cool) from the free-er/spacier stuff I associate with spiritual hats.

Yeah, I think of RTF, Mahavishnu, even Billy Cobham's Spectrum as instrumental prog-rock more than jazz.

Kamasi isn't really free jazz at all though! He gets a little out in parts but I think people are projecting a lot of this free jazz stuff based on the album cover... Ppl talking like he's Albert Ayler, he's way more funk than that

bob james isn't very cool yet either

Bob James' first album was on ESPDisk and features lots of 'out' electronic effects - ie he's way cooler than fucking Wynton Marsalis will ever be

Also Taxi theme song & the Nautilus break

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV0wTtiJygY

i fucking love bob james ofc

I keep meaning to buy this Bob James compilation.

i am soooooooooooooo all for this whole thing. you watch that NPR live concert thing on youtube and you can actually see african-american people under the age of 60 in the crowd. actual young people! and that's all i need to know really. sounds cool too.

plus, big bands rule. they are exciting to see live. and more people should experience that. can do without the laptop scratching though.

Huh, well, this thread has persuaded me to give this album another shot, which didn't really resonate with me when I listened to it earlier this year. My favorite jazz album is 2015 is the Joshua Redman/Bad Plus joint, I think, though I still haven't heard Vijay Iyer's Break Stuff, since ECM isn't on Spotify.

I bought the new Christian Scott on Bandcamp this morning. I'm only about halfway through it, but so far it's pretty good. Very electronic, even glitchy in parts. There's one track that makes me think Scott likes '80s Miles. Just the way he plays when he's got the mute in, and the way the synths kind of slosh around him.

oh yeah i really love "perspectives" and "tantric" where the background gets really amorphous around his trumpet playing

btw http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/21105-stretch-music/

There is way more energy and range and funk to Kamasi than Bad Plus or Vijay; they're operating under completely different rules. Kamasi doesn't feel anywhere near as sophisticated (or hipster, actually, if we're going there) as either of those, and it's patchy (it's 3 fucking hours long, of course it's patchy) but it's way more fun and I've listened to it (broken up in chunks) way more.

Polar Bear for best jazz album I've heard this year though.

i've spent way too much time debating whether to check out an artist named "polar bear" in 2015

the thing I like about Kamasi in general is that he seems young enough where the whole Wynton/Crouch camp vs. free jazz vs. fusion vs. whatever wars don't seem to mean much to him, during the show they went all over from stuff that felt like trad be-bop to more wild freer stuff to Meters funk workouts to P-Funk synth shit....there's also a certain way he's "post hip hop" in the way he relates to music even when he's not doing anything that's explicity "jazz hop" or hip hop influenced

like the show felt really wide open in a good way where they just follow it where it leads and don't feel the need to join a "side"

yea otm 30 years on "the whole Wynton/Crouch camp vs. free jazz vs. fusion vs. whatever wars" seem very old now and not particularly relevant esp wrt kamasi but in general maybe too

imo the kind of fusion integrated into the flying lotus and kendrick lamar records has always been super cool

― insufficiently familiar with xgau's work to comment intelligently (BradNelson), Wednesday, October 7, 2015 12:09 AM (10 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and i think this is very true too

"like the show felt really wide open in a good way where they just follow it where it leads and don't feel the need to join a "side"

welcome to the 70's! in a good way.

yeah, i was reminded as much of the big CTI productions of the 70s as anything (much moreso than any real "free jazz").

New Christian Scott is really solid. It lacks the stiffness that I think characterizes a lot of jazz albums that dabble in electronic textures.

bonus to this thread has been getting a few current jazz album recommendations

the Makaya McCraven album that was mentioned in the Kamasi review on burning ambulance is pretty good so far

the thing I like about Kamasi in general is that he seems young enough where the whole Wynton/Crouch camp vs. free jazz vs. fusion vs. whatever wars don't seem to mean much to him, during the show they went all over from stuff that felt like trad be-bop to more wild freer stuff to Meters funk workouts to P-Funk synth shit....there's also a certain way he's "post hip hop" in the way he relates to music even when he's not doing anything that's explicity "jazz hop" or hip hop influenced

like the show felt really wide open in a good way where they just follow it where it leads and don't feel the need to join a "side"

― Comme Si, Kamasi (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, October 7, 2015 9:47 AM (57 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think you nailed it here. I think maybe the only thing that does feel conspicuously retro to me is the cover (not to bring it back to that). The album itself feels very postmodern in its refusal to "be" a "thing." I mean, half of these songs have a choir on them fer chrissakes.

That said, I'm definitely ready for the Kamasi Washington Trio or Quartet or whatever. Would be cool if he follows Matana Roberts' lead and continues to make these sprawling albums occasionally punctuated by the odd blowing session.

Oh yeah and that Makaya McCraven album is indeed very nice, though I will confess I bought it because Josh Abrams played on it.

I've got the McCraven album sitting at home, need to check it out.

Polar Bear thoughts, for those interested: http://devonrecordclub.com/2015/09/22/polar-bear-same-as-you-round-84-nicks-choice/

Not familiar with Polar Bear at all. The review makes me want to hear them. I was confusing the name with Panda Bear, which was causing a visceral revulsion - "No fucking way am I listening to one of the assholes from Animal Collective's fucking 'jazz album'!", like that.

Ha! Yes, I can understand that instinct. They're pretty well known in the UK (London based) but I have no idea what their profile is in the States.

if you like that, the Sons of Kemet album from a couple of years ago is also amazing: two drummers (including the bandleader from Polar Bear), clarinet, and tuba (playing basslines, basically).

lots of thoughts on this thread, but instead i'll just post this video which showcases his sound in a nice minimal duo setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPnpEEj9siU

would be curious to hear your thoughts Jordan!

my fav jazz albums of the year are :

milford graves & bill laswell - space-time redemption
&
matana roberts - COIN COIN chapter three river run thee

This kamasi album is cool, but i think i'd rather listen to original 70's jazz albums.

oh yeah i really love "perspectives" and "tantric" where the background gets really amorphous around his trumpet playing

btw http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/21105-stretch-music/

― insufficiently familiar with xgau's work to comment intelligently (BradNelson), Wednesday, October 7, 2015 8:57 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

hey i dug your review brad

enjoying the album too

1) I'm pretty tired of the idea that Wynton is synonymous with square & embarrassing. The jazz wars are over, he's made a ton of music, and a lot of it is good. I came around to some of the septet music through the back door after getting immersed in New Orleans music for a long time. It's not always my favorite take on it, but he comes by it honestly and it's mostly about hearing Herlin Riley play:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nayYQXtddXE

And really, N.O. brass band music ruined me when it comes to most jazz. There are no questions of who it's for, what's the point, is it cool, (a lot of the questions being discussed in this thread) etc because it's a living music with a clear cultural function, and it bangs super hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TviGgyEGDFs

2) I like the Kamasi Washington album but haven't heard the whole thing. Love the parts with strings & vocal backgrounds like 'Askim'. It reminds me of Alice Coltrane, Mwandishi, etc which definitely seems of a piece with Flying Lotus's taste in jazz (which is why it makes sense on Brainfeeder). And this is why there's a minor backlash, right? Because it's a pretty referential & retro album, except it's being done in 2015 by musicians who have absorbed everything. And it's on a cool electronic label and has gotten a lot of attention, but I get why people that are deeply invested in modern jazz might get grumpy about this being the one jazz album that non-jazz people hear all year.

3) The last FlyLo is the version of this that really sounds like 2015 imo. A lot of the same players but chopped up & compressed (in more ways than one) in a new way. This is like the flipside where you get to hear everyone play uninterrupted (and maybe for too long?).

4) I kind of like the super-dense, maximal sound of this album that has the drummers hitting really hard at times to cut through. I also kind of don't like it because one of the nice things about jazz is when the instruments are all given lots of room to breathe in the mix. It definitely sounds like a lost ambitious '70s record at times though.

Yall seriously have me adding Wynton albums to my Amazon cart. These are strange days.

That Herlin Riley guy is great.

I'm pretty tired of the idea that Wynton is synonymous with square & embarrassing. The jazz wars are over, he's made a ton of music, and a lot of it is good.

otm

1) I'm pretty tired of the idea that Wynton is synonymous with square & embarrassing.

I don't think anyone's saying that. His music never struck me as squarebarrassing, but his and Stanley Crouch's (ultimately failed) attempts to erase from history whole movements in the music is indeed something they should be profoundly embarrassed about.

i was responding to this mostly:
there's a part of me that nags 'you're gonna find this pretty embarrassing in a few years'. i LOVED wynton marsalis' blue interlude when i was a kid so i'm speaking from experience there.

wynton's a great player who's made some excellent records! i think his status as the "authority" on all things jazz (as in the ken burns doc) is a little unfortunate, but you take that away, the dude's music is very much worthwhile. and really, i feel like a lot of that "authority" thing is more the way burns presented him rather than his own vibe. the interview on do the math from a few years back is great: http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/interview-with-wynton-marsalis-part-1.html

I hated the way he would talk about dudes that were either old or dead by time he was even born like he knew them in Ken Burn's Jazz thing....

"Man...now when Bird would come in the club, you just knew no one had that tone he had" blah blah blah "it was like this" *takes out trumpet and plays some riff*

haha i kind of loved that tbh

burns doc had a lot of problems obv but ultimately i really enjoyed it (though lol i think i only saw the first 5 parts, i don;t think i made it past bird)

Huh I'm really surprised by how much I'm enjoying this Christian Scott album. Never liked him before (and there's nothing about him that sounds like a New Orleans trumpet player) but this is really nice. It incorporates production/electronics really naturally and has a cool take on the two drummer thing (one of them, who I first saw play with Donald Harrison when he was like 12, is always on percussion & sample pads it appears).