Funny... had a conversation with a friend of mine over the interweb about this very subject... my eventual resolution as to the asexuality/coy adolescent sexual perspective is just kinda germane to this style of music, surmised in my idea that it just wouldn't sound right if pasty emo-rockers began to sing about "getting their freak on"...
― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 12 May 2003 14:06 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 12 May 2003 14:49 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 12 May 2003 15:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 12 May 2003 15:01 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 12 May 2003 15:03 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 12 May 2003 15:09 (twenty-one years ago) link
― the pinefox, Monday, 12 May 2003 15:09 (twenty-one years ago) link
― justin s., Monday, 12 May 2003 21:49 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Evan (Evan), Monday, 12 May 2003 21:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Monday, 12 May 2003 21:57 (twenty-one years ago) link
― justin s., Monday, 12 May 2003 21:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 12 May 2003 21:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
― justin s., Monday, 12 May 2003 21:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
justin s, I have an unproven theory that the accuracy with which one may define a genre has an inverse proportion to its relevancy. It sounds like the rap slang jess talks about in Dismemberment Plan songs serves to strengthen the genre boundaries in place rather than complicate them, at least the way he describes it. Not really an "Olé" as Frank might say. Which is why, at least on this front, I like Limp Bizkit more; when they drop slang it's not "realer" but it doesn't throw up a wall either, or ironically call attention to itself, it does something else.
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 12 May 2003 22:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 12 May 2003 23:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
― justin s., Tuesday, 13 May 2003 05:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
it's not about keeping people down, it's just fucking obvious - it would be ridiculous for morrissey to start making cars and girls records like ludacris, and it's not out of order to say that he should stick to repression and bicycles... people have their own metiers and it's ok to push the boundaries, but completely overstepping them is never rarely too clever also the way in which sex is discussed usually corresponds to the overall aesthetic of the music in question, that's all i was saying... i mean for crying out loud how crapulent would it sound if chan marshall started to spit lil kim-style lyrics? both are pretty good when being themselves, but this kind of fusion would be pointless, unconvincing and daft...
― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 13 May 2003 10:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 13 May 2003 10:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
Article Response: Indie Kids
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 02:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Saturday, 13 May 2006 01:23 (eighteen years ago) link
― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Saturday, 13 May 2006 01:28 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 13 May 2006 01:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 13 May 2006 01:37 (eighteen years ago) link
Snrub, are you being funny. Google is your friend--you'll find Simon's latest book and his blog and maybe some articles for magazines.
― curmudgeon (DC Steve), Saturday, 13 May 2006 01:46 (eighteen years ago) link
― QuantumNoise (Justin Farrar), Saturday, 13 May 2006 01:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Saturday, 13 May 2006 02:20 (eighteen years ago) link
"I also had to wonder again about where all these reactionaries actually are. Maybe I live in a rarified world, but I don't know anyone who thinks albums are intrinsically superior to singles. I'm not sure I've ever met a person who espouses that much-pilloried view about singers not having written the songs they sing being inauthentic and thereby lesser."
Yes Simon, you do in fact live in a rarified world. The attitudes you describe are still in full effect and believed by most consumers in a knee-jerk way. The reason people priviledge those things (or variations of those things) and treat those beliefs as natural is because they form the very basis of western values - i.e. rockism doesn't just come from the rise and study of popular music, it is a symptom of a larger cultural tendency. To think that rockism no longer exists in one form or another is a fantasy.
― i'm from hollywood, Saturday, 13 May 2006 04:39 (eighteen years ago) link
All I would add is that anti-rockism is exactly like deconstruction (or maybe simply is deconstruction?), useful in its historical moment, or as a stage in an individual's personal history, as an anti-schlerotic of thought... but very much about the elimination of reasons to value, care, feel passionate, get worked up, etc. Its logic is one of discrediting ie. eroding the basis of beliefs, and indeed of belief itself, in favour of a pleasure-principled agnosticism. The net effect tends to be a kind of negative egalitarianism: not that all things become equally valued/valid, but that all things become equally trivial. (And that logic dovetails with aspects of late capitalism, digital culture, mp3/ipod/etc etc).
I don't know about anyone else, but reading that take I think not only is there nothing per se negative about what he outlines to me -- as much as there are implications otherwise, obv. -- but that the idea of 'a pleasure-principled agnosticism' is kinda my idea of a dream!
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 13 May 2006 04:53 (eighteen years ago) link
-- Tim (tfinne...) (webmail), May 3rd, 2001 1:00 AM. (link)
Jeez, years later, but if you still think so, I would ask why you feel that radical feminist theory has to be taken into account. Or: How does radical feminist theory (if that is indeed what is being employed in this book) result in anything resembling fairness or truth in The Sex Revolts?
Much of the book seemed to me to be a ploy, framing male behavior as one of two possibilities: 1) PHALLOCENTRIC or 2) the womb-fixated baby. This is not feminism aimed at empowering women, but rather to merely disempower men.
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 13 May 2006 04:55 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 13 May 2006 04:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― xero (xero), Saturday, 13 May 2006 13:50 (eighteen years ago) link
I think you're right that the book (quite explicitly) splits male-performed music into those two ostensibly dichotomous positions, and in doing so it doesn't make any attempt to give a well-rounded assessment of the music in question, instead skewing it towards the notions expresed in the banner it has been grouped under.
...but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it "disempowers men". The message I got from the book was "gender fucks us up (men and women) and this can result in good, interesting music."
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 13 May 2006 22:09 (eighteen years ago) link
The idea that the book involves an underlying "ploy" of attempting to "disempower men" comes mainly from this branch of their dichotomy - painting males with a broad swath as "mother's boys," closet babies, "castrated," "sublimated," etc.
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 13 May 2006 23:39 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 14 May 2006 00:35 (eighteen years ago) link
I don't think they argue that though. Their schematics are just one way to characterise the music covered. I don't think they're pretending that their readings in this book are anything other than highly specific, partial and explicitly not comprehensive.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 14 May 2006 08:13 (eighteen years ago) link
That is what I got out of that book, which I like a lot in spite of its obvious flaws.
― sleeve (sleeve), Sunday, 14 May 2006 08:47 (eighteen years ago) link
Or how about this:
"The leading edge in rock has been those bands that have intensified semiotic elements (chromaticism, noise) at the expense of structure (verse/chorus/middle eight narrative, the 'proper' ranking of instruments in the mix, which usually favors the voice and the lyrics). In fact, the emotionally regressive (that's to say, womb-fixated) seems to go hand in hand with formal progression: both share an impulse to transgress and transcend established limits."
I hardly see this as a partial reading. They are trying to suggest that ALL formal progression in rock is an act of emotional regression and code for womb-fixation.
Any melancholic music made by men (who have "castrated themselves" - taken "the soft option") falls in this category also: "For Kristeva, melancholy is 'the most archaic expression of a non-symbolisable, unnameable narcissistic wound'--in other words, the loss of mother." Again, I see this as a part of this book's ploy: painting men as closet babies.
All energetic music made by MEN, on the other hand, is, of course, "hormonal."
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 14 May 2006 15:27 (eighteen years ago) link
Trying to cram everything into their paradigm, they make very objectionable personal statements about artists also. To strengthen the womb-fixation paradigm, for example, they state that Jimi Hendrix, Brian Jones, Syd Barrett and Sid Vicious were part of "a lineage of rock heroes who allegedly had an unusually charged relationship with their mothers."
"Allegedly"
"Unusually charged"
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 14 May 2006 15:37 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 14 May 2006 16:28 (eighteen years ago) link
I think he lives in a rarified world.
― curmudgeon (DC Steve), Monday, 15 May 2006 04:17 (eighteen years ago) link
― Makrugaik (makrugaik), Monday, 15 May 2006 15:08 (eighteen years ago) link
expoused
dated for more
Alan Jones
Say what you like about Reynolds, but at least he can spell.
Otherwise I miss the point of your post, be there any. Seems to me that "nostalgic meandering" is right up your street.
― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 06:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 06:42 (eighteen years ago) link
"An approach that treats "Smells Like Teen Spirit," "Chime", "One In A Million", "Who Am I?", "___", as equally exceptional--flashes of form that may or may not carry content in the traditionally valorized sense as part of their arsenal of impact, but that always create content through the audio-social ripples and cultural shockwaves they trigger.
I need to come up with a snappy name for this approach, this sensibility..."
... and I think, "yes, it's called anti-rockism!!!!"
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 07:49 (eighteen years ago) link
(I know CoM is the elephant in Blissblog's living room, but even so...)
― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 08:00 (eighteen years ago) link
who does he think his target market is ffs? his whole steez is aimed at students of all ages -- that's fine, but who is he trying to kid here?
― the confusing situation Enrique currently endures (Enrique), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 08:03 (eighteen years ago) link
Marcello, I pretty much agree - Church of Me is an excellent example of how a music critic can be fiercely judgmental about music without having to limit yrself as a listener.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 08:32 (eighteen years ago) link
― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 09:20 (eighteen years ago) link
Haha, Marcello, I think there are so many elephants in Blissblog's living room right now there's hardly room to move...
― Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 14:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 14:06 (eighteen years ago) link