Take a Sad Song and Extract Every Last Ounce of Spontaneity from It: the Beatles Uber-Ballad Poll

Yup, and that's what's so great about Abbey Road and people don't realise it. It has all the mainstream appeal of a Wings album like Band On The Run, but a consistency to it that comes from all the songwriters being involved. But it's easy to see why John and George couldn't go on working like that, as tempting as it is to think about how 'Maybe I'm Amazed' would have sounded nestling alongside 'Instant Karma' and 'What Is Life', with the same production values as Abbey Road has.

John had a habit of getting excited about some idea, then when he's gone off it deciding it was Paul's idea in the first place.

But it's easy to see why John and George couldn't go on working like that, as tempting as it is to think about how 'Maybe I'm Amazed' would have sounded nestling alongside 'Instant Karma' and 'What Is Life', with the same production values as Abbey Road has.

Richard Linklater had the same thought.

There's been quite a few attempts at putting the solo tracks into a 'Beatles' subsequent album.

Not seen one that actually works though.

Paul wants to do Paul music but would rather do Paul music with The Beatles and put the John and George music through a Paul filter.

What is this filter apart from great bass parts and backing vocals.

Like he shouldn't have to apologize for wanting to play the others' songs.

I doubt Paul would be cool with putting his songs through the John or George filter (altho tbh they probably couldn't maintain the required interest in his shittier material)

Again, what do any of these filters involve apart from playing your instrument and singing?

being told exactly how to play your instrument and sing, presumably (which Paul quite clearly did)

You're talking about "I've Got a Feeling?"

I mean, the songwriter's decision about the lead guitar idea he didn't like for "Hey Jude" strikes me as the kind of thing that goes on in bands all the time.

I'm sure that's not the only instance but yeah that was the first one that sprang to mind

xp

His version of "All Things Must Pass" from that concert is awesome!

― timellison, Thursday, June 18, 2015 5:28 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Did he introduce it by saying, "Here's one we thought wasn't good enough for the Beatles to record" ?

And speaking of the Scorsese doc, Paul reveals that George came up with the main guitar figure in "And I Love Her." He even said of the figure, "THAT'S the song!" Apparently not enough to warrant a co-writing credit.

There's been quite a few attempts at putting the solo tracks into a 'Beatles' subsequent album.

Not seen one that actually works though.

― Mark G, Thursday, June 18, 2015 10:27 PM (46 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Indeed. The differences in production values, for one. The fact that John and George developed very distinct solo identities, for another.

Again, what do any of these filters involve apart from playing your instrument and singing?

― timellison, Thursday, June 18, 2015 10:38 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Playing your instrument, singing, production, arrangement.

I mean, listen to their solo albums and it speaks for itself. I'd bet that Paul had a much bigger hand in the arrangements of John and George's tracks than they ever did on his.

Mmm, very speculative. There was also George Martin.

Will you guys please look at this?

https://www.facebook.com/georgeharrison/photos/a.215228111344.138122.20929721344/10152858923651345/?type=1&theater

George TOOK A PICTURE OF PAUL.

Did he introduce it by saying, "Here's one we thought wasn't good enough for the Beatles to record" ?

Err, ahh, ahh...is this documented? Never heard this one. They were playing it during Let It Be sessions, I know. "We" = John and Paul or who?

Oh yeah, and song selection too... Paul quick to dismiss 'Cold Turkey' and several Harrison songs, yet Lennon and Harrison fucking loathe 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer' and it still manages to get onto an album?

And speaking of the Scorsese doc, Paul reveals that George came up with the main guitar figure in "And I Love Her." He even said of the figure, "THAT'S the song!" Apparently not enough to warrant a co-writing credit.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat

It isn't. If so, Al Kooper would've had one on "Like a Rolling Stone."

I'm growing weary of fighting but which George songs quick to dismiss?

that's what a guitarist is supposed to do -- come up with riffs. To solve this problem, you can do what REM-U2 have done and credit everybody.

"Not Guilty?" It's a good thing the Beatles didn't release "All Things Must Pass" on Let It Be!

credit everybody.

Exactly.

Jagger/Richards are without a doubt more stingy at giving out credits than Lennon/McCartney ever were.

If George should have ben credited as a co-writer of "And I Love Her," then perhaps Ringo should be a co-writer of "The End."

If you're going to hold that credits should follow a distinctive or signature riff, but not normal or obvious or stock parts, it seems to me that this is a slippery slope and a potentially endless topic.

Did Steve Gadd cowrite "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover"? If yes, then every session person who ever played something awesome should be credited. If no, then to what extent has any drummer ever written anything?

Is Ringo a cowriter of the Beatles' recording of "Roll Over Beethoven"? I don't think anybody told him what fills to play at which points, so presumably he composed his own parts.

re: "Jagger/Richards are without a doubt more stingy at giving out credits than Lennon/McCartney ever were." Ask Richard Ashcroft!

Or Bill Wyman, or Mick Taylor...

Believe Anthony Jackson got a writing credit for his bass part on "For The Love Of Money," but that was a notable exception.

Guys, I have to commend you on finding new nuanced and interesting things to say about the Beatles at this late stage in yhe history of ILX.

Oh yeah, and tim much love to you too, never change.

Sorry, I do you like your contributions, and wish I knew the emoticon to use in this situation.

back at you brother!

If George should have ben credited as a co-writer of "And I Love Her," then perhaps Ringo should be a co-writer of "The End."

Of course. Why not? Did someone else write/play that solo?

Did Steve Gadd cowrite "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover"?

I think the question is, did Paul Simon write Steve Gadd's part? If Gadd wrote it, then sure, Gadd should get co-credit.

If yes, then every session person who ever played something awesome should be credited. If no, then to what extent has any drummer ever written anything?

I'm all in favor of all musicians being credited with co-writing. Why not? Just because it's inconvenient? The way "writing" "credit" (and subsequent copyright) is determined is still stuck in the Tin Pan Alley/sheet music era. The recording is the composition, not the inaudible piece of paper with calligraphy on it.

One example (maybe an extreme one) that I always come back to: why are only Rodgers and Hammerstein credited with "My Favorite Things" on the hour-long version on John Coltrane's Live in Japan? They didn't compose any of the solos, nor did they have any hand in the arrangement.

The recording is the composition

Yes but so are the sequencing of events, the chord progression, and the lyrics.

credit the listener imo

it's difficult work

well George came up with the "I look at all the lonely people" part in "Eleonore Rigby" and didn't get a songwriting credit... so a guitar lick...

Other people came up with all sorts of additions/suggestions to Beatle songs.

It's possible that some of them got a little bonus for it, without getting a credit as such.

The occasional line, word, whatever. Did Ringo get one for "Badge" I wonder?

Ringo also came up with the "darning his socks" bit in "Eleanor Rigby.

Recent remarks on George's songwriting, on publishing, starting at 36:04.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owP_32EIoXE

I'm interested in the "What is songwriting?" topic but this may not be the place for it. Not sure I can go as far as Tarfumes T.E.G. - though I greatly respect the inherit ethics in this view. Certainly, Coltrane et al. are composing their solos over the bones of the R&H song. No one who cares about Coltrane would understand it any other way.

I do fear it leads to a reductio ad absurdification stance, whereby a hired percussionist who hits a triangle on 16th notes instead of 8th notes for one and a half measures is as much a composer as Mozart. Or somebody who walks by the studio and says, "You know what this needs? Cowbell." Or a person who makes a slight editorial suggestion like, "Hey John, perhaps you should consider 'it's easy if you try' instead of 'it's easy if you attempt it' here."

I'm a drummer myself, and wouldn't naturally expect praise or credit or extra payment for standard patterns that are off-the-shelf, so to speak. It would be silly to refuse to play anything until the songwriter had "written" that I should play the kick on 1, 2, 3, and 4, snare on 2 and 4, eighth notes on the hat, etc. Of course I'd appreciate credit for an innovative/unique part. But then it becomes subjective as to what level of complexity constitutes composition.

At the same time, if person A writes a reasonably complete song - chords, lyrics, melody, riff, key, feel, tempo, instrumentation - and then the band's bassist chooses to play 1, 5, 1, 5 (instead of 1, 1, 1, 1) for a few measures, I'm not quite ready to say that constitutes composing on the same level as doing the creative and emotional labor of coming up with the foundational ideas in the first place.

not sure if it's said already but i was led to believe songwriting credits go to the person who writes the lyrics and the topline melody. so even if you come up with an iconic beat or bassline, you won't get credit for it in regular circumstances.

They go to whoever, basically.

There's a Fad Gadget song that has a "Robert Gotobed" credit as a thanks for the work he did, drummingwise, on the whole album.

Also, "Land of 1000 dances" has Fats Domino on the credits even when the song is only being sampled for the "Nah nanana nah" bit which wasn't on the original. And he was only added to make him record it.

Or a person who makes a slight editorial suggestion like, "Hey John, perhaps you should consider 'it's easy if you try' instead of 'it's easy if you attempt it' here."

Ha, supposedly Lennon's only contribution to "Hey Jude" was telling Paul to leave in the line "the movement you need is on your shoulder" (Paul wanted to rewrite it).

At the same time, if person A writes a reasonably complete song - chords, lyrics, melody, riff, key, feel, tempo, instrumentation - and then the band's bassist chooses to play 1, 5, 1, 5 (instead of 1, 1, 1, 1) for a few measures, I'm not quite ready to say that constitutes composing on the same level as doing the creative and emotional labor of coming up with the foundational ideas in the first place.

Yeah, it's like, the organ part of "Whiter Shade of Pale" defines the song as much as the lyrics and topline melody. There's a reason the organist sued for credit while, say, the bassist didn't:

On 30 July 2009 the Law Lords unanimously ruled in Fisher's favour. They noted that the delay in bringing the case had not caused any harm to the other party; on the contrary they had benefited financially from it. They also pointed out that there were no time limits to copyright claims under English law. The right to future royalties was therefore returned to Fisher.[38][39] The musicological basis of the judgment, and its effect on the rights of musicians who contribute composition to future works, has drawn some attention in the music world. It has shown that someone who composes a "signature" part for an otherwise complete song could indeed be credited as a co-writer.[40]

yeah there are no rules. jagger/richards could have credited jones, wyman, taylor, etc.
they just decided no to.

errr... the melody of the organ part of "whiter shades of pale" is by JS Bach !

(well inspired by...)

Jagger/Richards should have credited Wyman on 'Jumpin' Jack Flash', I think.