Kendrick Lamar - To Pimp A Butterfly (2015)

Kim Kardashian as Kahn

Featuring Drake as "the Jews"

Daniel Kahneman as Kanye

Khanye

Farrakanye

great discussion

Many of the first critical responses to “To Pimp A Butterfly” pleaded for more time to figure out what, exactly, Lamar was doing. In Slate, Carl Wilson wrote, “It’s too soon to say whether ‘To Pimp a Butterfly’ is a more satisfying album.” In The Fader, Rawiya Kameir wrote, “God knows how long it will be before any of us fully grasp the stacked meanings, extended metaphors and shrouded complexities of Kendrick Lamar’s ‘To Pimp A Butterfly.’ Definitely weeks, probably months.” There seemed to be a reluctance, especially among white critics, to straightforwardly criticize the album. (“How should white listeners approach the ‘overwhelming blackness’ of Kendrick Lamar’s brilliant new album?” read the deferential subheadline to Wilson’s review.) This caution is a testament to Lamar’s talent, but also to the power that comes with his messiah status: Critics seem afraid to say much about this album because they want to believe in him too, even when what’s in front of them doesn’t exactly deliver on their expectations.

i just wanted people to maybe wait, like, three days before writing about it. listen to it a bunch. live with it. that's not so weird.

i'm with you scott; worth noting that the NYT Mag piece took the time and is a bit more cohesive

Over the past few days, I’ve listened to “To Pimp a Butterfly” at home, on the train, on a plane, while eating dinner and while watching a basketball game at night. Each time, when I start feeling bored or listless, I’ll stare down at my phone and try to find the one track that will snap me back to attention. On “Illmatic,” it was “Memory Lane” or “Life’s a Bitch.” On Notorious B.I.G.’s “Ready to Die,” it was “Warning” or “Suicidal Thoughts.” On “good kid, m.A.A.d city,” it was “Sing About Me, I’m Dying of Thirst.” There isn’t a track like that on “To Pimp a Butterfly.”

For me, there are a bunch of tracks that fit this bill:

King Kunta
Institutionalized
U
Alright
Hood Politics
How Much A Dollar Cost
Complexion (A Zulu Love)
The Blacker The Berry
I
the Tupac-less portion of Mortal Man

scott every writer wanted more time as well, if you care about it this much please feel free to email all our editors

nyt mag piece is damn good, though i feel like it only implies rather than outright interrogates why the idea of a hip-hop messiah is dubious, particularly in its implicit criticism of the whole rest of hip-hop. (we've talked about this on other threads, but as with the d'angelo album it's noticeable how many people who aren't checking for any other rap or r&b check for these two which check the messiah/auteur/musicianship boxes.) i disagree that there isn't that one song to snap you back to attention - it's "king kunta", duh - but i think i might be on board with the rest; the sheer amount of references packed in is overwhelming and thrilling but i don't know how much of a coherent statement ultimately comes out of it, apart from radical self-love?

Some of those in your list are a bit... diffuse, but seriously if King Kunta or The Blacker The Berry don't snap a listener back to attention it's difficult to imagine what would.

xxp yeah, for me it's These Walls / Kunta / Dollar / Blacker the Berry / Alright but it's been shifting! It's a lovely, living album.

also has anyone (not white, obv) actually written about kendrick and respectability politics? also that terrible parody of "lookin' ass" that opens "for sale?"

xps Yeah, hard not to snap back into attention when you hear that scream in the beginning of "u"

craig jenkins mentioned resp. politics (albeit briefly) in his p4k review

lex i agree that the opening skit thing on "for free" comes off as kinda sus but i don't really think kendrick had "lookin' ass" on his mind when he made it

kunta, blacker the berry, all these tracks work better as album tracks than standalone moments IMO.

critics being a tad cautious is no bad thing. there is something cluttered about the album. it is very dense. but not always in a good way. theres a lot to process, but im not sure what to actually take away from it all. not yet at least. i get that the album is brilliant but im not really sure why, other than that a lot of effort has been expended. i think that article is excellent though the meaning/expectations of a HHM changes depending on the era. nas wasn't 'political', neither was biggie, which the article says has alwyas been important, not like PE or this new kendrick album for instance.

"as with the d'angelo album it's noticeable how many people who aren't checking for any other rap or r&b check for these two"

calling your album black messiah probably helps.

"King Kunta" sounds great on the radio!

lex i agree that the opening skit thing on "for free" comes off as kinda sus but i don't really think kendrick had "lookin' ass" on his mind when he made it

― are... are you saying you fucked a gazelle? (slothroprhymes), Thursday, March 26, 2015 4:00 PM (32 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

nah the phrasing is too similar, it's pretty obviously a clapback to recent misandry anthems by female rappers and singers

right thats what i meant by it being sus, but "[insert term here]-ass n---a" has been a piece of slang for quite some time

that part of "for free" put a bad taste in my mouth too, reminds me of the mean-spirited obviously-written-by-the-dudes female monologues on albums from the 80s like alexander o'neal's hearsay

and therefore sounds dated on arrival

i just heard that as kendrick showing hes not some goody two shoes rapper like people might have thought. like, him saying he can do 'we dont love these hoes etc' too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNJ7phdqFSo

"if you care about it this much please feel free to email all our editors"

i actually fault the record label more than the editors or writers.

Considering that "For Free" is using the gold digger narrative as a metaphor for how America treats black men, implying that it's a misogynist response to Nicki Minaj involves fundamentally misunderstanding the subtext of the song.

kendrick has been making tracks/mixtapes/etc for what 10+ years now? i rarely see that mentioned. like his last album was the first thing he ever did.

section 80 weirdly underrated imo; i still am not sure i don't like it more than good kid

Considering that "For Free" is using the gold digger narrative as a metaphor for how America treats black men

but why put this in the mouth of a (parody of a) black woman?

(when i first heard it my initial horror was alleviated by the twist!metaphor at the end but idk whether it suffices, the first verse is...not good)

"Considering that "For Free" is using the gold digger narrative as a metaphor for how America treats black men, implying that it's a misogynist response to Nicki Minaj involves fundamentally misunderstanding the subtext of the song."

there are plenty other narratives you could use rather than ones about gold diggers... im pretty sure he knew it could/would be read both ways, not least because of the beat and what we associate with that kind of funk. tbh that song just makes me think of the coup.

not cos the coup have funk like that but cos the whole thing, whole album maybe, is this kind of meta funk, meta-gangsta shit. in fact the whole thing might be the most meta-rap album anyone in his position has ever made. reminds me a bit of why ive never really gotten into the coup, even when theyve tried to sound like more gangsta bay area guys, they make you keep that same kind of narrative distance.

i could never listen to an entire coup album.

Considering that "For Free" is using the gold digger narrative as a metaphor for how America treats black men, implying that it's a misogynist response to Nicki Minaj involves fundamentally misunderstanding the subtext of the song.

― DJP, Thursday, March 26, 2015 12:16 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

thank you, i was scrolling down this convo waiting for someone to point this out

but why put this in the mouth of a (parody of a) black woman?

Because it's a pretty rudimentary bait-and-switch; dress the actual sentiment up in clothes that trick the listener into thinking the song is going to be about Topic A before wrong-footing them into Topic B. It strikes me that this is one of the less subtle narrative tricks happening on the album.

There's also an entire conversation about how reading that intro as a direct response to Nicki involves wholesale buying into the view of black men that the song is tearing down but I should probably do my actual day job at some point today.

aint no fun if the homies cant have none was also a metaphor for institutional structures keeping black communities from accessing america's riches.

try harder

Pretty sure if that intro was intended as a response to Nicki it would have been phrased as a VERSE rather than the on-running monologue is actually is.

ok in no way is it even slightly related to a long-running lineage of black female pop (obviously not just nicki), fine, whatever

Isn't it drawing on a caricature that is also addressed from a different direction in said long-running lineage of black female pop? It's the whole shared source material rather than direct influence thing again.

I mean I've lost count of the number of movies or TV shows I've seen with that specific caricature in them.

it's a long-running trope in depictions of black relationships & kendrick is underscoring what that trope is really about

xp!

do you guys think the woman in the track has an actual real life uncle named Sam or something

That's not the argument being made. The argument being made is that it is a subversion of expectation; the "black woman" you think is being disrespected on this song is not actually a black woman. The entire point is that America uses black men in the same manner typified by the "gold digger" stereotype, which is blatantly clear from even half-listening to the lyrics of the song and the final response from the hypothetical gold digger in the song "I'mma get my Uncle Sam to fuck you up. You ain't no king."

xposted into irrelevancy but dammit, I typed it so I'm hitting submit

But still. There are an awful lot of evil women amongst the symbols that Kendrick uses, right?

... No? Unless you think every female character on Section.80 is evil, which is a stretch. As far as I can tell, it's just Sherane (who isn't even actually evil but rather is as much a product of the environment as Kendick, his friends and their enemies are) and Lucy (who is literally The Devil and not actually a woman)

i dont think keisha, tammy and sherane (on section.80 and GKMC) are supposed to be "evil" in the least. i guess you could argue about whatever lucy represents on butterfly but i don't buy that even the latter is meant as any sort of blanket sexist statement

daaaaaamnit DJP shot first

Lucy (who is literally The Devil and not actually a woman)

this is sledgehammer obvious, no?