amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

hahaha, thought of this thread immediately...

http://toronto.craigslist.ca/tor/wrg/4917981503.html

the crowdsourcing thing just seems like a lot of grief and work.

Rock Paper Shotgun dude is an insane person btw

No musician gets a Ted Talk or book deal about selling t-shirts

okay, fine, you guys are the experts.

scott you're coming from the perspective where the most selfish ideal is someone giving you a million bucks for a toothpaste cap, with you driving off with the loot. palmer's coming from a place where the ideal is to know she could jump off any building and a group of loving fans would catch her, thanking her for the privilege. its not just about profit, but engagement.

Rock Paper Shotgun dude is an insane person btw

ty I felt real weird watching this guy just demand APOLOGIZE! APOLOGIZE! SAY YOU ARE A PIECE OF SHIT! all thru that & then if you read the comments (I know I know) it's a bunch of people goin YEAH FUCK YEAH GREAT INTERVIEW MAN

yeah, i guess it's just weird to me. it's about money but it's not about money? but it always kinda boils down to money. which is why i wonder why someone would want to resort to weird emotional games with their fans when they could just sell them stuff. sometimes people just want to buy things. the whole *you are a part of me and my art by giving me money* well, okay, i guess that's as old as the hills a la patronage, but still...doesn't seem next-level to me.

cult leader vs ceo

her first ~Thing~ just dropped:
http://amandapalmer.bandcamp.com/track/bigger-on-the-inside-3
unlikely to win her any new fans, but I think it's beautiful. saw her play it live a couple of years (?) back and half the room was in tears. it was pretty powerful seeing an artist you know is so widely (and ott) hated address it outright and from several angles like that in an otherwise very fun-vibe gig.

I wonder if one of the named people she dedicated it to is the "French kid" in the lyrics

No.

I dislike Palmer but I do give her credit for consistently giving Zoe work

guess what? i’m pregnant, Amanda Palmer wrote in the caption. super special thanks to Neil Gaiman.

This letter isn't the worst thing considering the circumstances but Garbage explained why they're not paying a photographer and shouted out to Amanda Palmer along the way: https://www.facebook.com/GarbageOfficial/posts/981221691888682

Pat Pope
Dear Shirley Manson........I don't think my response could ever be accused of being 'hostile'............and you know what.....you could have emailed me direct! (BEFORE ALL THIS STARTED!)

I don't know if its fair of them to say "any refusal of permission would be respectfully accepted and no further questions asked" in an open letter dressing a photographer down for refusing permission.

xpost

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/pat-pope/garbage-an-open-letter_b_6993366.html

for the record

An Open Letter to Garbage

Dear Shirley, Butch, Duke and Steve

I don't know if you will remember me, my name's Pat Pope and across a few years in the Nineties I worked for you as a photographer. That's one of my photos of you accompanying this letter. I worked pretty hard on that photo - actually, throughout my time as a photographer I hope I've always worked hard to make all the artists I've had the opportunity to shoot look as good as they can.

Today I received an email from your management company Big Picture Music Co. It's a very nice email, and in it they announce that you're working on a book about the band which you plan to self-release next year. The email says that you really like some of the photos I took of you and would like to use them in your book. It also says that in return for the use of my photos you will give me a "proper credit" but that given it is planned to be a self release the budget is "financially limited", by which your management company mean "we're not going to pay you". So I wanted to ask you a couple of questions, and I wanted to do it publicly because I think it's important that people know what your answer is. I don't expect as many people will see this Open Letter as Shirley's recent message to Kanye West, but I think it's important we know where you, as artists, stand.

Q1: I'm a firm believer that musicians and artists deserve to be paid for their work. I'll sign any petition that's out there supporting that concept, and even when I choose to stream rather than buy, I'm one of the fans of your band that will pay for a premium service because I think you should be paid. That's my point of view. Is it yours? When you think about artists being paid, does that include photographers? Do you think "content providers", whatever the hell that means, deserve to be paid for their work, or is that a special category for musicians? If I want to release a music album, can I use your music in it if I give you a "proper credit"?

Q2: If you're putting together a book, presumably someone at your management company or somebody in the band has written a budget. And if there's a budget, somewhere in that budget, against the line for "use of photos" somebody has written "no need to pay, we'll just give them a proper credit and get them for free". Against all the other lines, for writing, for printing, for distribution, for retailing, for marketing, for the management company, for the band, for Uncle Tom Cobbley and all, somebody, somewhere, working for you, has written a number down because that's what it costs. But that same person has written zero for photos, because that content, in their opinion, they can get for free. Who is that person? As a band are you happy to be employing someone who thinks like that? Because it seems to me that the person who writes down "zero for photos" today is the same person who will write down "zero for music" tomorrow because they don't respect the "content providers".

By writing this open letter, I'm obviously committing professional suicide when it comes to ever working with you again, and probably it won't do my reputation any good within the music industry to be seen as troublemaker. Obviously that worries me, but it worries me more that musicians and others are saying one thing publicly about the needs for artists to be paid for their work whilst privately people working for them are doing exactly the opposite. I'm not accusing you personally of being hypocrites, I don't know how involved you are in this process, but I'm letting you know it's happening and it's happening in your name.

So, very respectfully, .......no.

No, you don't have my permission to use my work for free. I'm proud of my work and I think it has a value. If you don't think it has any value, don't use it. I'm saying no to a budget that says you can take my work for free and make money out of it.

Thanks, and still a fan of the band

Pat Pope
www.patpope.com
PS: Just so you know, this is actually an improvement on the management of your Absolute Garbage album where the record company just used my work without even asking. I only found this out when I went into a shop and bought a copy, which, when you think about it, has a certain irony.

ok fair enough
fucking open letters

lol why didn't you respond to my Huffpost shaming letter privately?

Writing an open letter almost automatically makes you an asshole if it's someone you could just write privately. I mean - fair enough if you want to write Henry Kissinger an open letter or something but you're on shaky ground writing an open letter to a washed-up 90's band.

AN OPEN LETTER TO COUNTING CROWS

what kind of person would buy a garbage photo book is the real question here

I smell an open letter brewing...

pat pope should have said "yes, but you have to photoshop shirley out of the pic"

just three rockin' dads in black, that's all you get for free

I've seen a lot of garbage photo books in my day, what's the point of one more?

Amanda Palmer will be "opening" for "Morrissey" on his "tour"

http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/rock/6523980/morrissey-us-tour-2015-dates-blondie-amanda-palmer

well, as long as they aren't coming anywhere near maryland, i guess.

Brio2 is otm. It's unprofessional and uncouth. Take it to The People's Court or something. There are appropriate avenues in which to settle disputes.

well the issue is that pro photographers ownership and rights to their own work is routinely tested by people with tons of money who have no interest in paying them. imagine you were about to release a major label mix of live covers and dropped an artist who recorded one of those songs with a form letter that says "hey no pay but THE EXPOSURE and if you don't want to do it, no biggie; we'll take somebody else", I could understand taking umbrage

Just looks like one date on the Moz tour

apparently garbage had already used one of the photographer's pics in their liner notes without permission, i can see getting justifiably shirty about this new "art of asking" feint.

Seems like the label should be handling that tho. Getting permissions and licenses is a responsibility of production side of the things the artists and musicians should be focusing on the music.

they are now an independent band on their own label, according to the response letter.

Writing an open letter almost automatically makes you an asshole if it's someone you could just write privately. I mean - fair enough if you want to write Henry Kissinger an open letter or something but you're on shaky ground writing an open letter to a washed-up 90's band.

― Brio2, Friday, April 3, 2015 7:37 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

don't chat nonsense, calling out patterns of labour and copyright exploitation in an industry riven with them is very necessary to do as publicly as possible

and it's that exact kind of tut-tutting that enables it bc it makes people think twice about being seen to complain in public

Yeah in the long run my sympathy is with the photog on the issue, esp considering garbage has already used the open letter format to tell kanye west he's a butt. But when his response to theirs is IM NOT HOSTILE it sounds like both need to just step back

Yeah you guys are right.

Moral of the story is if you're going to ask people to give you stuff for free claiming poverty you should probably not have your manager do the asking

So was he really paid in 1995 for the shoot? Because if so then I'm back on Garbage's side. Unless they didn't give him credit I don't see why he could keep being paid for the same photo.

it has nothing to do w being paid at the time. when a photog sells their work it's a licensing situation where the purchaser gets to use the pictures for a certain price w certain terms (unless it's work for hire, which one should avoid unless the dump truck is full of money). it;s fair to say that even if he was paid in 95 those terms have expired and should be renegotiated. ppls thoughts on the letter aside, the content is 100% valid in this day and age and garbage is full of shit wrt begging.

I have to have variations on this conversation w people wanting my pictures weekly.

Do you use contracts or releases for your shoots? Because if he had something down in writing this all could have been avoided.

a) yes

"Because if he had something down in writing this all could have been avoided."

avoid what though?

it could all be avoided if garbage had money to pay their contributors?

pope pat XXIV

He was already paid in 1995, right?

Why didn't he decline to have his photo used when he heard they weren't paying him again?