amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

hey croup you are not very fun to talk to

Have other successful crowdfunders written books/went on talks about how they are visionaries for doing so?

― ©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, March 4, 2015 8:34 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This kind of thing isn't unprecedented...

http://www.milliontalks.com/uploads/monthly_03_2011/post-9-075148700%201300791159_thumb.jpg
http://eil.com/images/main/Timelords-The-Manual-157176.jpg
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NGQ5ZFT9L._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

I call all katherines "kat", it's meant friendly
Katherine, you mind?

I honestly believe that "I love you" is a pretty FAd Q for Amanda Palmer - she does the cult of personality thing, but emotional labour has always been part of the job for a lot of artists, women in particular.

I also find that I feel differently about this sort of thing after spending too much time reading about GamerGate, but that's a longer post for later.

Basically she emotionally manipulating goths

It is such a shame because goths are so easily manipulated! I mean health goth was bad enough!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwvzP2JcFtg

I also find that I feel differently about this sort of thing after spending too much time reading about GamerGate, but that's a longer post for later.

― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, March 5, 2015 3:18 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Not GG related but I was thinking of this other recent famous kickstarter debacle, with Peter Molyneux:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/02/13/peter-molyneux-interview-godus-reputation-kickstarter/

Essentially he over-promised and there are specific things he promised that he didn't deliver on, whether through the natural order of creating a game or because of his being a "pathological liar" as the intro question of the above interview so cuttingly puts it. He was put out to try. A glance at this interview, it is clear that the interviewer wants badly for this guy to pay for his crime of misusing his power. He was trashed in many articles like this.

AP is huge in crowdfunding, but I feel like this sort of thing couldn't really happen to her. Or is this comparable to what she went through w paymusiciansinbeerhuggate?

Put out to try dry.

With Molyneux it's more that Kickstarter provided a specific framework to say "No, you have specifically agreed to do this - and you can't" - he'd had years (decades!) of talking up amazing life-changing games and just making good-to-great ones, and always being a great interview subject.

I don't think that AP has the same golden aura around her in the music press? But then I also don't think that (as far as I know) she's failed any of her pledges - da croupier's distaste is not, at least, a question of ethics.

does she really make more money this way than just selling a download or a book of poetry on her website? i mean, you can make a song at home for nothing. seems like it would be easier than doing all this other stuff.

speaking of cults of personality it's molyneux

Amanda Palmer has always been pretty transparent about the cost of what she does, and she said in the Patreon blog (one of them anyway) that her pay-what-you-want download shop is unsustainable and that Theatre Is Evil sold very little post-Kickstarter. I think this is a good solution for her. And the main reason she's never going to fuck up like some crowdfunders do is she has employees who do all her logistics stuff, answer customer service emails and make sure deadlines are held. The one kickstarter item that was delayed was an art book and she kept people continually informed about that situation while apologising for it.

And this is why Patreon might be great for her but hardly the future of music cos most artists just aren't that organised/service-minded, and even if they have the sense to leave this stuff to someone else it will probably be to someone called Rab the Legend they met down the pub.

does she really make more money this way than just selling a download or a book of poetry on her website? i mean, you can make a song at home for nothing. seems like it would be easier than doing all this other stuff.

dude it is very hard to get people to pay for just a download

is it ok to laugh about the fact that the video ends with the words "trust me" written over her eyes, with the words turning white as the screen fades to black

but lots of people sell downloads and then physical releases that go up in price. limited-edition stuff, etc. they have stores. seems like less trouble. she could print one bad poem on fancy paper and do limited releases of those. you can sell all kinds of things online if you have a fanbase.

she's going to still do that. this is a pre-sale with some VIP love attached.

i mean, she does sell stuff on her site, but not much!

http://shop.amandapalmer.net/

http://media.giphy.com/media/HDdUFEN2TqUmI/giphy.gif

where are the 30 dollar t-shirts on her site? limited-edition 30 dollar t-shirts. the crowdsourcing thing just seems like a lot of grief and work.

seems like more fun to get paid 20 000 dollars every time you release an MP3 than make sure you have enough XXXL 30 dollar T shirts in stock

i'll bet she could sell polaroids of herself for a hundred bucks a pop on her website. hand-written page of lyrics: $500.

hahaha, thought of this thread immediately...

http://toronto.craigslist.ca/tor/wrg/4917981503.html

the crowdsourcing thing just seems like a lot of grief and work.

Rock Paper Shotgun dude is an insane person btw

No musician gets a Ted Talk or book deal about selling t-shirts

okay, fine, you guys are the experts.

scott you're coming from the perspective where the most selfish ideal is someone giving you a million bucks for a toothpaste cap, with you driving off with the loot. palmer's coming from a place where the ideal is to know she could jump off any building and a group of loving fans would catch her, thanking her for the privilege. its not just about profit, but engagement.

Rock Paper Shotgun dude is an insane person btw

ty I felt real weird watching this guy just demand APOLOGIZE! APOLOGIZE! SAY YOU ARE A PIECE OF SHIT! all thru that & then if you read the comments (I know I know) it's a bunch of people goin YEAH FUCK YEAH GREAT INTERVIEW MAN

yeah, i guess it's just weird to me. it's about money but it's not about money? but it always kinda boils down to money. which is why i wonder why someone would want to resort to weird emotional games with their fans when they could just sell them stuff. sometimes people just want to buy things. the whole *you are a part of me and my art by giving me money* well, okay, i guess that's as old as the hills a la patronage, but still...doesn't seem next-level to me.

cult leader vs ceo

her first ~Thing~ just dropped:
http://amandapalmer.bandcamp.com/track/bigger-on-the-inside-3
unlikely to win her any new fans, but I think it's beautiful. saw her play it live a couple of years (?) back and half the room was in tears. it was pretty powerful seeing an artist you know is so widely (and ott) hated address it outright and from several angles like that in an otherwise very fun-vibe gig.

I wonder if one of the named people she dedicated it to is the "French kid" in the lyrics

No.

I dislike Palmer but I do give her credit for consistently giving Zoe work

guess what? i’m pregnant, Amanda Palmer wrote in the caption. super special thanks to Neil Gaiman.

This letter isn't the worst thing considering the circumstances but Garbage explained why they're not paying a photographer and shouted out to Amanda Palmer along the way: https://www.facebook.com/GarbageOfficial/posts/981221691888682

Pat Pope
Dear Shirley Manson........I don't think my response could ever be accused of being 'hostile'............and you know what.....you could have emailed me direct! (BEFORE ALL THIS STARTED!)

I don't know if its fair of them to say "any refusal of permission would be respectfully accepted and no further questions asked" in an open letter dressing a photographer down for refusing permission.

xpost

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/pat-pope/garbage-an-open-letter_b_6993366.html

for the record

An Open Letter to Garbage

Dear Shirley, Butch, Duke and Steve

I don't know if you will remember me, my name's Pat Pope and across a few years in the Nineties I worked for you as a photographer. That's one of my photos of you accompanying this letter. I worked pretty hard on that photo - actually, throughout my time as a photographer I hope I've always worked hard to make all the artists I've had the opportunity to shoot look as good as they can.

Today I received an email from your management company Big Picture Music Co. It's a very nice email, and in it they announce that you're working on a book about the band which you plan to self-release next year. The email says that you really like some of the photos I took of you and would like to use them in your book. It also says that in return for the use of my photos you will give me a "proper credit" but that given it is planned to be a self release the budget is "financially limited", by which your management company mean "we're not going to pay you". So I wanted to ask you a couple of questions, and I wanted to do it publicly because I think it's important that people know what your answer is. I don't expect as many people will see this Open Letter as Shirley's recent message to Kanye West, but I think it's important we know where you, as artists, stand.

Q1: I'm a firm believer that musicians and artists deserve to be paid for their work. I'll sign any petition that's out there supporting that concept, and even when I choose to stream rather than buy, I'm one of the fans of your band that will pay for a premium service because I think you should be paid. That's my point of view. Is it yours? When you think about artists being paid, does that include photographers? Do you think "content providers", whatever the hell that means, deserve to be paid for their work, or is that a special category for musicians? If I want to release a music album, can I use your music in it if I give you a "proper credit"?

Q2: If you're putting together a book, presumably someone at your management company or somebody in the band has written a budget. And if there's a budget, somewhere in that budget, against the line for "use of photos" somebody has written "no need to pay, we'll just give them a proper credit and get them for free". Against all the other lines, for writing, for printing, for distribution, for retailing, for marketing, for the management company, for the band, for Uncle Tom Cobbley and all, somebody, somewhere, working for you, has written a number down because that's what it costs. But that same person has written zero for photos, because that content, in their opinion, they can get for free. Who is that person? As a band are you happy to be employing someone who thinks like that? Because it seems to me that the person who writes down "zero for photos" today is the same person who will write down "zero for music" tomorrow because they don't respect the "content providers".

By writing this open letter, I'm obviously committing professional suicide when it comes to ever working with you again, and probably it won't do my reputation any good within the music industry to be seen as troublemaker. Obviously that worries me, but it worries me more that musicians and others are saying one thing publicly about the needs for artists to be paid for their work whilst privately people working for them are doing exactly the opposite. I'm not accusing you personally of being hypocrites, I don't know how involved you are in this process, but I'm letting you know it's happening and it's happening in your name.

So, very respectfully, .......no.

No, you don't have my permission to use my work for free. I'm proud of my work and I think it has a value. If you don't think it has any value, don't use it. I'm saying no to a budget that says you can take my work for free and make money out of it.

Thanks, and still a fan of the band

Pat Pope
www.patpope.com
PS: Just so you know, this is actually an improvement on the management of your Absolute Garbage album where the record company just used my work without even asking. I only found this out when I went into a shop and bought a copy, which, when you think about it, has a certain irony.

ok fair enough
fucking open letters

lol why didn't you respond to my Huffpost shaming letter privately?

Writing an open letter almost automatically makes you an asshole if it's someone you could just write privately. I mean - fair enough if you want to write Henry Kissinger an open letter or something but you're on shaky ground writing an open letter to a washed-up 90's band.

AN OPEN LETTER TO COUNTING CROWS

what kind of person would buy a garbage photo book is the real question here

I smell an open letter brewing...

pat pope should have said "yes, but you have to photoshop shirley out of the pic"

just three rockin' dads in black, that's all you get for free