Taking Sides: Genesis 1970-1977 Vs. Genesis 1978-91

It took listening to the live records to appreciate the songs on W&W

Actually the Knebworth '78 show is ace and well worth checking out, the BBC recorded it.

W&W has never sounded particularly good to me; of the remixes from 2008 it's the only one I think was a slight improvement. I love the second side suite (from Blood on the Rooftops on) but the first side still has never really clicked.

Actually, now I remember it, there's two linked instrumentals on W&W that are great. And Afterglow is lovely.

some tasty chester and phil interplay on the version of firth of fifth from this ace boot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBMfIKgs0HI

Here's Phil and Bill Buford, during the latter's brief tenure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FrFytItybk

I've never really taken to Wind and Wuthering in the same way as I have other '70s Genesis record, I may need to give it another try.

Seriously, though, "And Then There Were Three" is such a stiff that no one even considers it a '70s record.

I really like And Then There Were Three, it manages to sound both epic and concise at the same time. Duke is where it all started to go off the rails for me.

Looks like there's been next to no mention of Hackett's Genesis Revisited stuff? I only recently discovered he'd done such a thing, and while rerecording old material with different players is, I guess, debatable, simply from a production standpoint they sound AMAZING.

yeah the record is good. And live it was amazing, even though the vocalist is a bit too much for me to take live.

ATTW3 rules hard, apart from Ballad Of Big, which is pish.

ATTW3 is mushy and dull and it has "the lady lies' on it which is the worst thing ever

I like the first track and the last track. The rest goes in one ear and out the other.

I recently got a used copy of the remixed early 70s box on LP. I'm no vinyl fetishist, but I like how the format enhances the sort of storybook quality of those albums. Those remixes got all kinds of hate but they can be a fun listen; the instrumental passages sound pretty great, though Gabriel's remixed voice at times sounds shrill and bratty.

those remixes sounded better on vinyl than the CDs. I quite like them, personally, but not more than the original mixes (there are some places where I'm pretty sure alternate takes of vocals were used, which was weird the first few times I heard them). the vocals are def more raw in some places.

Was speaking to a guy today that considered And Then There Were Three to be the last Genesis album worth listening to, he hates everything after that.

That's strange, I can see people disregarding them starting with Abacab (which I do like), but I don't know why someone would dig ATTWT and not Duke

Though to be fair I always thought ATTWT was kind of a mess - to me it goes with Tormato and Love Beach in an "ex-proggers trying to adjust to an unfriendly world" kinda way. Not to say any of these albums are bad really, I just never remember much from any of them (outside of Tormato, which is so over-the-top that it can't help but be memorable)

That's strange, I can see people disregarding them starting with Abacab (which I do like), but I don't know why someone would dig ATTWT and not Duke

― Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Friday, January 30, 2015 1:56 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, I pretty much thought the same thing, but he didn't seem to be into Duke at all. Strangely enough, what followed after that was an enthusiastic conversation about Yes' Drama(!)

cuz yeah, Duke's a pretty great album, even better when I realized that there is essentially an entire "Supper's Ready"-style epic on it, just split up across the album

I don't mind Duke but it very much pointed the way towards the later stuff in a way that ATTWT didn't. The split-up epic is great (although it would have been even better as a single piece), but Turn It On Again and Misunderstanding are just dross. On ATTWT (Follow You Follow Me excepted) they still sound like prime-era Genesis only with shorter songs.

Yeah, I wish they hadn't copped out and stuck to the original idea of keeping the long epic on Duke. I like 'Turn It On Again', fwiw.

I like Turn It On, also. One of the weirdest pop songs they've done. In 13/8, iirc! Phil is right that it's his drums that make it sound simpler than it is.

yeah that's a great song - "Misunderstanding" I'm not so keen on but "Turn it on Again" was, IMO, everything a radio hit from a prog band should be

I wish there was a better recording of the 1982 reunion concert. They sound good. Peter straight-up tells the audience that the purpose of the show is to get cash to cover the losses from WOMAD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPdEPC2AsB8

Man, self-titled. It's like their "Out of Time" - some of their best stuff ("Mama," "Home by the Sea," "Taking It All Too Hard"*), some of their absolute worst ("Illegal Alien," "That's All"), and some nice deep cuts ("Just a Job to Do," "Silver Rainbow").

*I can see how Genesis/Phil ballads might be controversial, but this is a lovely song, imo, that bridges '70s Genesis and '80s Genesis really well.

I love That's All. in fact the only song on that album that I don't like is Illegal Alien, and it's the worst song Genesis ever did in any formation (even worse than stuff on Calling All Stations). Remove it and that is a superb proggy pop album. I don't like it more than Abacab but I like it more than anything they did after.

I'm with akm. I'd argue that the s/t is their best album of the '80s. Abacab and Duke have a couple of great songs and a bunch I can't make it to the end of, but the s/t strikes a perfect balance of prog/AOR/pop. Except for "Illegal Alien," which is a musical war crime.

ABACAB is my favorite of their pop albums. But I think self-titled to me feels like a stab at what they did much better with invisible touch.

I think That's All is dumb, but anything is good compared to illegal alien.

lol I like "Illegal Alien"

the lyrics are dumb but it's a fun tune

It's no Buy Me a Condo.

*I can see how Genesis/Phil ballads might be controversial, but this is a lovely song, imo, that bridges '70s Genesis and '80s Genesis really well.

Invisible Touch played a strong ballads game too imo

Funny that even at their prog height, Phil's singing about some bird that broke his heart ("More Fool Me").

Abacab is my favorite genesis but i definitely have a lot of time for the s/t. I thought everyone loved "That's All"??? A superb beatles homunculus with a nifty guitar solo I can sing from memory. I'm gonna play this album next!

In general, first wave prog bands going noo wave was a great thing IMO.

I never thought of it as Beatles-y, I always heard That's All as corny faux honky tonk. I like Phil's drumming on it a lot, though, and I like the ... bridge?

IDK it has always had a weird kind of abbey road vibe for me?

Another nice tidbit on that track -- the sort of attackless liquid guitar arpeggios that fade in and out under some iterations of the chorus

Fucking garbage piano sound though, I feel like prince had an unsupportable fondness for this same sound

also something has happened and i seem to be able to tolerate illegal alien now? WTF. It has such a good leslie lead hook!

re my second sentence, it sounds like he is fingerpicking on an actually pretty dissonant chord but it's just so compressed and liquified it doesn't call any attn to itself

"Heathaze" from Duke gives me some feels.

I love "Afterglow" from "Wind & Wuthering," where it just keeps washing into new waves of lovely. Superb use of a fade-out, too. That album has "Your Own Special Way" on it, too. "Trick of the Tail" has "Ripples." Ballads might just be this band's forte. Of course they rocked, too, but in a really particular way.

Speaking of Mike Rutherford, he not only stuck out in Genesis as the only non-virtuoso member, but in the world of prog at large it's pretty unusual to have such a relatively modest lead guitarist. He's a neat bassist, though. His playing on "No Reply at All" is cool.

A Trick of the Tail may be my favorite Genesis record of all.

Squonk!

Yeah ToTT and W&W are the two best Genesis albums for me. Banks was in his prime as a songwriter and Collins' vocals are just perfect.

"Heathaze" from Duke gives me some feels.

Yes! Duke might be my favourite Phil-era studio album.

+1 for Squonk!

The Invisible Touch tour was actually my first concert, and digging backwards through the Genesis catalog was my first music-geek moment (they lost me when I got to about Nursery Cryme).

So with that disclosure in mind, I think the pre-1978 stuff was objectively better, but it was also pretty much for dudes only. I once read an interview with some musician (can't remember who) who said something along the lines of "all music has some sex in it. if you don't, you just end up like Genesis". And I think this quote was referencing the side-long prog suites, not the AOR pop moments. I still have a soft spot for a lot of the later era stuff (Behind the Lines, Follow You Follow Me, Misunderstanding), but the stuff I'm more likely to revisit now is the older stuff.

"they lost me when I got to about Nursery Cryme"

you only have to go back one album after that! two I guess if you really want to

Re: Mike Rutherford basslines, I've learned to love his mod noodling on the Fountain of Salmacis.

FWIW, as far as prog goes Genesis I think is among the most ... sensitive? That is, as dude-y as prog is, imo it's a far cry from more macho stuff like King Crimson or Van Der Graaf Generator or even fussy stuff like Yes, let alone the cock-prog of ELP. Genesis has all that folk/pastoral stuff, and of course, again, actual ballads. At least pre-1980 Genesis. After that, yeah, even the ballads are sort of neutered AOR generic, as much as I love them.

"Paperlate" is such an overlooked/forgotten gem. Until last week I thought that "Inside Out" was another forgotten Genesis-with-horns gem, but then I remembered it was on "No Jacket Required."

Sure you're not thinking of "Inside and Out"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyeUizLp1rk

Yeah ToTT and W&W are the two best Genesis albums for me. Banks was in his prime as a songwriter and Collins' vocals are just perfect.

yes these two are fantastic. a recent relisten through the whole Genesis catalogue really boosted those two in my mind while revealing some of the early stuff I had previously liked as being a bit spottier than I remembered. the supposed double that W&W could've been which included some of Hackett's material and the tracks from Spot the Pigeon (how did those get cut??) would've been incredible.

IMO the later stuff goes Abacab > Genesis > Invisible Touch, even though Abacab really does go to shit on the last couple tracks. "Dodo/Lurker" is exactly what New Wave prog was meant to sound like.