Taking Sides: Genesis 1970-1977 Vs. Genesis 1978-91

I've seen these guys do both "Lamb" and "Selling," and they kill it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CePekvsztD4

yeah I'd love to see them, they played in my town but I was away at the time :(

I saw ReGenesis once and they were pretty good but not a patch on these guys

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that "a Genesis cover band" was some random group playing 25-cent wings night down the street. By all accounts, The Musical Box -- including, as you mentioned, those of the members of Genesis -- are amazing.

Here's Phil's account:
http://www.genesis-news.com/c-The-Musical-Box-Phil-Collins-about-his-guest-performance-in-Geneva-s238.html

It ended up that we decided that I would play their encore of The Musical Box. I left it till the day of the show... a dangerous thing to do !!! I went downstairs to my basement where my drums are, and I tried to play along to the Genesis version.... DISASTER. What would have been a problem for some drummers, the fast bass drum parts for example, were no problem for me... but everything else.... WHOA !!! I realised that I was trying to play things that I'd played 30 years ago. This was not going to happen.

multiple xposts

I wonder if that was the night he was shamed into quitting the music biz

I can't remember to what extent it comes across in the documentary, but Phil seems an excessively melancholy soul in his dotage

More drummers should be shamed IMO

In my experience drummers are often perfectly capable of shaming themselves

Phil Collins is really unique in that he was a very high level musician who as a drummer played on some other big records that had this second life as a pop soul singer. I always thought it was pretty telling that Genesis had to go get a ringer of a drummer like Chester Thompson to take his place, a guy that had been able to handle the drum chair with some jazz heavyweights in Weather Report and fit in quite well with Frank Zappa's scripted lunacy in 7/16 time.

A bad back and it's hazards has taken out more than a few drummers. Pretty much the long time drummer of Opeth I believe had to leave that group with similar back issues.

I'd think it possible that some of the Dead members have probably had to think on their feet trying to to sit in with the Dark Star Orchestra. This Genesis cover group "The Musical Box" seems to get just as fanatical on trying to capture it all in total. I suppose in itself, it's not different than modern combos doing a tribute like the Mingus Big Band or the various modern Arkestra type groups. It's trying to capture what made the original recordings and the music interesting.

Roger Miller was down for the count in the '80s, wasn't he?

I've considered seeing TMB, but something makes me a little uneasy about it. Genesis were playing these grotty little halls for dirt cheap back in the day, and there's something de-legitimizing to see a fancy shindig catering to old yuppies presenting the same material. I'd rather see today's unknown bands in urine-smelling pits. Doesn't mean that I don't respect what TMB are doing, but I don't see myself as part of their audience.

It doesn't feel like nostalgia, at least, it feels like real love for the band and music, though. That is, the crowd at TMB was really no different than the crowd I saw at King Crimson earlier this year.

And yeah I actually had Roger Miller before I hit submit, but took him out and replace him with Linda Thompson for a) gender diversity and b) in case someone thought of the country singer. Miller these days, fwiw, plays with headphones on, often behind or away from the amp.

FYI, where the "Lamb" tour played Chicago back in '74:
http://mydrinkon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Auditorium-Theatre-photo-credit-James-Steinkamp-1024x840.jpg

wow that is rad

Is that the Auditorium? My brother saw Van Morrison there in the mid-80s and said it was by far the best-sounding venue in the Chicago area.

Oh, yeah, it sounds great. I've seen ... Wilco, Tori Amos, Tool (!), Swell Season, Eddie Vedder, Tom Waits, White Stripes, Bjork, Dead Can Dance ... buncha stuff there. Very pretty to look at.

There are many moments in the boxed set docs where Banks says something like, "I was proud of the music I'd written, and Gabriel's vocals messed it up" for things like "Supper's Ready." The Eno bio also mentions Banks being jealous or just generally dickish about Eno's involvement with Lamb.

Sounds like if Banks had always had his way, Genesis records would be little more than bland psuedo-baroque keyboard solos.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:54 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh god yeah, there were many moments in those docs where Banks would say something like that and I'd just be thinking "my god, this guy must have been such an incredible pain in the arse to work with". He's probably the one member of Genesis I'd hate to spend any amount of time with. I could imagine Collins, Rutherford and Gabriel being great to chat with, Hackett would probably get pissed off that he wasn't getting asked about his solo career. Banks, I imagine would grate on me very quickly.

Question for the floor: Can you name a prog-rock keyboard player who _isn't_ an asshole? Not defending Banks, just curious! (Keith Tippett doesn't count. He's jazz.)

Rick Wakeman comes across as a bit of a grumpy bastard now, but I'll bet he was easily the most down-to-earth member of Yes circa Close To The Edge.

this thread is reminding me how glorious the opening to "Firth of Fifth" is.

Can you name a prog-rock keyboard player who _isn't_ an asshole?

Hugh Banton (VdGG) and Chris Buzby (Echolyn) immediately come to mind.

Richard Wright, of course.

Banks has always seemed like an uptight prig, resentful that a commoner like Collins should get all the fame and fortune. Listening to the 3-disc set that accompanied the doc, it was striking how completely useless Banks’s tunes were. Rutherford’s Mike & Mechanics stuff, in contrast, was pretty spry ‘80s AOR.

Hackett always comes across as shy and a little insecure. I’m guessing he was victim to Tony’s snide dismissals throughout the 70s.

Yeah, as The New Guy who suddenly got a lot of attention, I'm sure Hackett was a frequent target of glares from Banks' monocle.

In the doc he talks about being a sort of shy bedroom dude, soloing to no one with the amp turned low. Later Banks dismisses him as sort of stiff while praising Daryl Stuermer, but frankly that shows how badly Banks misses the point.

A friend of mine says that Chester Thompson has been living in Nashville and trying to get session work, with no bites. Talk about a devil's bargain: he's the drummer for Genesis and Phil Collins solo, which probably made him rich and definitely affirms his chops, but when those huge acts are idle he's at loose ends, because no one will hire him.

I'm not here to defend Banks as a person, but I feel duty bound to point out that he wrote the lion's share of the music for both A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering, many fans' (including my) pick for Genesis' best ever albums. Wiki says "Hackett felt his contributions [to Wind and Wuthering] were left out in favour of songs written by Banks", which makes me wonder how much worse an album it would have been if Hackett had had his way.

Also Banks' debut solo album A Curious Feeling is a cracker, although I've never bothered to check out any of his later solo work.

Hugh Banton (VdGG) and Chris Buzby (Echolyn) immediately come to mind.

I love a lot of the stories about VdGG back in the day, that despite the fact that they made (arguably) the most intense, dramatic, and self-serious music of the whole period, they apparently were really good, down-to-earth dudes, producers and engineers supposedly loved working with them. I think success just kinda ruins some people, ELP definitely come to mind here, and I suppose Yes to some extent. One thing I love about the post-70's group of prog bands is that they tended to stay good for longer, maybe because they're not chasing anything or having to listen to anyone outside of the band. Echolyn is a good case in point here, they've been an excellent band for over two decades now, maybe because guys like Buzby are taking jobs as music teachers now.

i want to make it clear i have no actual malice towards tony banks. i've never met him, don't know him. it's just that he embodies so many of the aspects of prog rock i like to make fun of that i really can't help it.

like, first off, he's not nearly as good a keyboard player as he thinks he is. i mean, yeah, sure, tony, you can play the hell out of those arpeggios, good job there. but there's something kind of hilarious about naming a section of your pseudo-side-long-epic "apocalypse in 9/8" and then playing the solo in 4/4. call it "polyrhythm" if you want, but i know what i call that: lazy. same thing goes for some of their other songs- they were just a little over-ambitious. "the musical box" plays "return of the giant hogweed" way better than genesis ever did, both because they have a little bit more practice at it and because, well, they have more chops than the folks in genesis ever did. it's good that they were ambitious, i guess, but genesis' strength as a prog band was never their chops but their songwriting skills, which was why they made it as a pop band and none of the other prog bands did. i'm at the point where i almost feel like tony banks was at his best when he said "fuck it" and went to strumming a 12-string guitar.

mind you banks' songwriting is of somewhat questionable quality in my book. "wind and wuthering" is not an album i have any time for at all, except for "blood on the rooftops", which is, yep, hackett's cut. i find their ten minute time-travel epic "one for the vine" particularly half-assed. especially the lyrics. look, i know you're not supposed to listen to prog lyrics, but the bit where it goes something like "a wayward footfall made him stray from the path prepared for him"- uh, tony, you mean he got lost? thanks dude.

the thing i love about vdgg is that hugh banton seems to have treated the entire '75-'76 reformation of VDGG as an excuse to build a REALLY AWESOME custom organ, in that he spent two years working on the thing and as soon as it was finished he was immediately "peace out". you know, i can respect that sort of thing.

TMB are great live although i think their frontman is the weakest link; his absolute aping of Gabriel is unnerving to me and he's not aging into the part particularly well (where Gabriel was lean and mean, dude is getting a pudge and looks a bit silly in the black catsuit). I've seen them do the Lamb which was incredible though; and the Foxtrot tour. They're back through next month or so doing the same Selling and Foxtrot nights; haven't made up my mind whether to go or not. If I do it would probably be for the last time unless they do the Lamb again.

Just fired up 'Dance On A Volcano' for the first time in ages... yeah, it still fucking rules. Anyone who ever doubted Collins' talent behind the kit seriously needs to check out that track.

I'm with akm on the Gabriel stand-in's weird forced mannerisms, but the voice is effing on!

I thought Trick of the Tail came from the band jamming aimlessly while they searched for a new singer? The Banks-led W&W is for me the dullest of their prog epics. I have more love even for Duke than for that soggy turd.

I'm kinda on board with most of what you're saying rushomancy but I wouldn't want to fall into the sort of trap a lot of people do when discussing Genesis, which is to praise the band but insist that Banks was either the weak spot or only really appreciate what he did in a backhanded manner. Everything I've read on the band kinda implies that for better or worse Banks was their compositional center. Even during the pop era Banks wrote most of the material, at least until We Can't Dance I believe. Don't get me wrong, I think Hackett would've been just as strong a writer (had they used him more), but that's the way things turned out.

In terms of pure chops - I always thought Phil was killer back in those days. Banks was nowhere near as good as his contemporaries but I appreciate what he did within the band's framework, stuff like that second half of "Cinema Show" is what I think they did the best. Hackett, well, who really knows, I love "Dancing With the Moonlit Knight" of course but where exactly does he show all he's capable of? Rutherford is plenty great as well though not until The Lamb do you really notice him (in my opnion).

I think Hackett's playing on"Trick of the Tail" is tops.

I just heard "Dance on the Volcano" for the first time -- boy, they're all playing at their peak, aren't they?

Hackett's excellence lies in his subtlety, I think. He's not as immediately noticeable as Steve Howe, or Fripp, but his parts are all very textural and lovely. (xpost)

The Shout soundtrack by Banks/Rutherford is really good too.

I think the Banks solo in "Firth Of Fifth" is really stunning.

Didn't realise Banks had this reputation.

I'm not sure he really did until all this interview footage came out.

I have to admit I've been listening the hell out of "Duke" these past few days. What a beautifully schizo prog-not-pop-not-pop album. Last I listened to it was maybe...30 years ago?

err.."prog-not-pop-but not prog"

Hackett's excellence lies in his subtlety, I think. He's not as immediately noticeable as Steve Howe, or Fripp, but his parts are all very textural and lovely. (xpost)

bingo - one of the few prog guitarists who always seems to add things rather than take away. his work on Wind & Wuthering is phenomenal (if you listen for it)

Hackett's my fave prog guitarist after Howe, for sure. Love his "Voyage Of The Acolyte" album.

i'd rather listen to voyage of the acolyte than any genesis album

something i've always wondered about genesis is the 'peter gabriel voice'. collins so easily replaced him in part because they sounded so much alike. the lead dude in procol harum sounds like PG too, and so does the lead dude in family and the guy from elbow. it's uncanny how this type of music attracts so many bros whose voices sound almost indistinguishable. or maybe it's just a british accent thing i don't get

I have an odd theory that once the Mellotron got put away they were able to become tighter (?) as a band somehow. I love Mellotrons but are there any post WaW?

Ah - let me reword that. Their songs got punchier.

I enjoy the way Banks used Mellotron on Trick and WaW by the way.

Well, post WaW marked the introduction of the digital synth, and Genesis being so popular meant they could afford some of the earliest versions. There are at least a couple of Banks solos that basically sound like him going through the banks of preset sounds.

xpost It's amazing how many proggy bands have Gabriel-esque singers. Not just Phil, but Talk Talk, Elbow, even Blue Nile a bit.

One of the things I love about Genesis, especially for a prog band, is that there are so few examples of showoff flash for flash sake. Collins is busy, but as clips attest, he has a relatively modest drum set (at least for a while) and really knows how to groove, whether it's "Squonk" or "Throwing It All Away." Hackett, as we've discussed, is pretty chill even when he's flash; "Moonlit Night" has those cool tapping bits, but they're here then gone, while "Frith" is neat but not technically too show-offy. Rutherford is pretty all meat and potatoes on both bass and guitar, and there's lots of space in all the band's music. Unike the flurry of notes that is Yes or ELP.

"Moonlit Knight," rather.

(xpost) Thanks, Josh. Didn't know that re: the digital synths.

I wonder if ABBA was an influence when making Duke's poppier tracks over at Polar Studios. Just a thought that passed as I was listening.

and marillion and big big train where the bite is self-conscious and deliberate. but that doesn't explain talk talk/elbow/family/procol harum/phil collins, except maybe there's a hyper-specific vocal type prone to singing proggy lyrics or vice versa

xpost

Actually, here's a big nerd list of Tony Banks equipment over the years: http://genesislive.ning.com/group/equipment/forum/topics/1982628:Topic:36382

So yeah, Mellotron is out and programmable polysynths come in. Not analog yet, but certainly a few steps up from the tapes in Mellotrons.

Some good Mellotron stuff I found in this (http://www.furious.com/perfect/fripp2.html) Fripp interview:

Q: Why did Crimson use the mellotron so much in in its work? The band kind of popularized it, didn't it?

FRIPP: I own six of them, five of which belong to King Crimson. I have two of the original double-manual mellotrons and two mellotrons from the '72/'74 Crimson. The Moody Blues also used mellotrons. I think Crimson used it in more abberant forms than previous users. By the time that Crimson ceased using them in September '74, you didn't have viable synthesizers. There was an impressionistic possibility from strings and flutes and brass that you couldn't get from a guitar, though you now can. The supposed mellotron use on Thrak is Adrian on my guitar synthesizer with some mellotron use as a homeopathic link from the past.

There is a version of "I Talk to the Wind" from the Chesterfield Jazz Club (not on Epitath) which was a 'bad hair night' for the mellotron. If it was a 'bad hair night' for the mellotron, which doesn't care anyway, it was AWFUL for the musician who had to play it. We had to make a decision- do we include this or not? Finally, we said no. Just to show how out of tune a mellotron can go while a musician is using it is not a reason to make it available throughout the world. At this point in the song, you can hear Greg Lake thinking 'do I pitch with the mellotron or the bass?' About a minute later, Greg has made up his mind- 'I'll go with the bass because it's closer to me.' However for the next two minutes, you can continue to hear Ian thinking 'shall I sing with the mellotron or with Greg while continuing to fine tune the pitch of the mellotron as the song begins?' This is 35-minutes into the gig, doing things we hadn't done at other gigs, just burning. Then our confidence is completely undermined. Their movement forward is brought to a halt by this AWFUL out of tune mellotron and the show never actually recovers from it, especially when the mellotron is used in any piece.

DAVID: There was another show where the mellotron was a semi-tone out of tune and this chord comes out that was delayed into the P.A.- the reason it went out of tune was because of the voltage so that if they played a loud chord, the mellotron went flat. Ian had to try to retune it as everyone else got quiet.

FRIPP: This we discovered particularly in Amercia, particularly working at the Boston Tea Party. In England, you work on 240 (volts) which is more reliable than the United States with 110 and much more than Sicily which is at 85. We were playing "In The Court of the Crimson King" and you heard D from the band and the tuned instruments, D flat from the mellotron strings and the voices horribly in between. We finally bought a voltage stabilizer after all of this.