Joy Division: Classic Or Dud?

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Like Kiss, you mean?

― dave q, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 16:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Does it? I like that idea. I didn't feel like actually checking the box set track listing against the two albums.

Yup. I haven't been in a JD mood for a while, but when I am I just listen to the box set. I really like the track listing actually (singles, peel sessions and whatnot before and after Unknown Pleasures and Closer on Discs 1 & 2 respectively).

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 16:30 (twenty-three years ago)

one year passes...

I finally get it!

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:18 (twenty-one years ago)

And this is why, courtesy of Tom:

I'm normally a big one for lyrics but I think Ian Curtis' were pretty dire - all that Ballard-rip-off stuff and the existential pomp of it all. Salvaged a bit by his voice, which I do like a lot. I don't even think "Atmosphere" has good lyrics. "Love Will Tear Us Apart" has BRILLIANT lyrics which from an artistic p.o.v. is the saddest thing about his death - that it seems like a breakthrough in terms of writing humane but unflinching stuff about relationships. But lyrically, generally, dud.

But the music! Bloody hell - the drive and claustrophobia and dynamics and Martin Hannett's production....it's extraordinary. A lot of it is Hannett and I think it's a shame that AFAIK I'm the first person to mention him in this thread. But that band could motor - "Dead Souls", for example, where the lyrics are pretty much irrelevant next to the huge concrete smack of the music. No, for the music, classic.

exactly.

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:20 (twenty-one years ago)

It only took me about 12-13 years to have this epiphany.

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:21 (twenty-one years ago)

what happened to you these last few weeks adam?

― gaz (gaz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean apart from being on the verge of being unemployed.

― gaz (gaz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I went back to the UK and I re-watched 24hr party people because s1ocki told me to.

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:23 (twenty-one years ago)

haha i watched 24 hour party people when you were in the UK too.

― gaz (gaz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:27 (twenty-one years ago)

and i bought the soundtrack for $2 too.

― gaz (gaz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:28 (twenty-one years ago)

on dvd? with the tony wilson voiceover?

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I had just posted this on a non-JD thread because I was too lazy to look for say, this one.
Here it is again:
Speaking of off key things, who is Peter Hook kidding with those bass licks in Joy Division's "Disorder"? They sound like SHIT! Does this bug anyone else?

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:28 (twenty-one years ago)

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:29 (twenty-one years ago)

on dvd yes. was there an extra tony wilson commentary?

― gaz (gaz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:30 (twenty-one years ago)

yes, a great one!

― adam. (nordicskilla), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:33 (twenty-one years ago)

which has had the effect of giving you an epiphany?

― gaz (gaz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Does this bug anyone else?
______
no

Heh. Well I'm already getting used to it, listening to it again.
I'm d/ling the whole box set right now. I only ever had Substance growing up.
That was a little jarring the first time I heard it - a little alarm went off.
It totally sounds like he just fucked up a couple times and never got around to overdubbing it.
But then the song's called "Disorder" so whatever.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I now am the owner of a book bag with Ian Curtis's photo on it with the inscription DANCE DANCE DANCE DANCE TO THE RADIO

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:54 (twenty-one years ago)

This pic of Ian Curtis:

ihttp://users.net1plus.com/steff/ian3.jpg

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Thursday, 16 September 2004 02:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Did you make the bag, or where did you get it?

Just downloaded the video of JD playing "Transmission" on a television show in September 1979. Extremely disturbing to watch -- Curtis looks terribly ill in it, and it is edited very obviously so that one sees as little of him as possible.

"Transmission" is the greatest song of all time.

― snazz, Thursday, 16 September 2004 03:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Where'd you get the video? on a p2p or is there a link?

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 03:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Slsk. Not hard to find. Less disturbing, and great: the video of them playing "Shadowplay" for another TV show.

I'm not sure if I could rock an Ian Curtis bookbag, but I at least want the option.

― snazz, Thursday, 16 September 2004 03:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I never noticed anything wrong with the bass on "Disorder". In fact I'd always thought of it as one of Hook's best basslines. Do you just think it's out of tune or you don't like how it's recorded?

That's a really flattering picture of Ian Curtis. Cool.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 16 September 2004 03:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I must be going mad.
YES the bassline sounds great except for a couple little lower register fills he does that sounded off key to me.
I'll listen to it again. Maybe I'm imagining things.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 03:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Eh, it sounded worse the other night. I was probably high or something.
I'm referring to the instrumental sections between the verses of course.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 03:28 (twenty-one years ago)

But those low notes DO sound a bit flat...
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
It must be all the Steely Dan I'm listening to. I'm getting picky about technical shit.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Thursday, 16 September 2004 03:35 (twenty-one years ago)

The Tony Wilson commentary on the 24 Hour Party People DVD is fantastic. Tony Wilson doing commentary on Steve Coogan doing commentary as Tony Wilson is somewhat surreal.

And Joy Division = classic classic classic.

― minolta (minolta), Thursday, 16 September 2004 03:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Joy Division have some nice tunes, but I think spending the money on the box/the glut of recent live releases = ridiculous.

I mean, "Transmission" and "Love Will Tear Us Apart" are absolutely essential & classic tunes, but as a whole, I just don't get it. I also agree with Tom's assessment that lyrically they're pretty dire, but would also add that I think Hannet's production on the drums was not up to snuff; they sound more often than not like full jugs of water. I'm basing all of this on Substance, BTW.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Thursday, 16 September 2004 03:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I now am the owner of a book bag with Ian Curtis's photo on it with the inscription DANCE DANCE DANCE DANCE TO THE RADIO

ARAGHADFADFGA HDFASDFASD.

(That was my inarticulate expression of jealousy. Please note my comments about "Transmission" at the start of the thread.)

The great thing about Tom's argument is that it's a FINE argument for why lyrics need not be paramount. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 16 September 2004 05:31 (twenty-one years ago)

So fucking classic.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Thursday, 16 September 2004 05:33 (twenty-one years ago)

'I mean, "Transmission" and "Love Will Tear Us Apart" are absolutely essential & classic tunes, but as a whole, I just don't get it. I also agree with Tom's assessment that lyrically they're pretty dire, but would also add that I think Hannet's production on the drums was not up to snuff; they sound more often than not like full jugs of water. I'm basing all of this on Substance, BTW. '

GET UNKNOWN PLEASURES AND CLOSER NOW THEN DAMMIT!!!

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 09:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I can see why Tom said what he said and he has a point about the lyrics. One thing that really works is the way that plainer,less pompous lines burst out from the song - e.g " That keep calling me/They keep calling me/Keep on calling me/They keep calling me" that follows the fairly preposterous/meaningless "Imperialistic house of prayer/conquistadors who took their share" in Dead Souls. The repetition is good too, but the delivery is terrifyingly intense. It's so great you can forgive the dodgy verses.

Likewise the "Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio" in Transmission - a lyric so startlingly out of place here, seemingly flown in from a top 10 pop hit. Again the delivery is brutal.

Also "Where have they been? " (Decades)

Tom's point about LWTUA is well-made. Also Ceremony ("All she asks the strength to hold me/then again the same old story"). Actually these are brilliant lines, simply brilliant. Also the first line of the song is fantastic : "This is why events unnerve me".

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Thursday, 16 September 2004 10:21 (twenty-one years ago)

The "Disorder" bassline is probably my favorite bassline of all time!

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 16 September 2004 16:46 (twenty-one years ago)

If I were still 17 and I saw ally with that bag on the train she would be my secret girlfriend in my mind for the next two weeks.

― kyle (akmonday), Thursday, 16 September 2004 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

is it like a kate spade bag?

― amateur!!st, Thursday, 16 September 2004 16:48 (twenty-one years ago)

The great thing about Tom's argument is that it's a FINE argument for why lyrics need not be paramount. ;-)

-- Ned Raggett (ne...), September 16th, 2004.

OTM.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

..but of course, the thing is that Tom actually engages with the lyrics, treats them as an object worthy of consideration, parses them out and renders a judgement. There's a big difference between that and Raggett's mindnumbing blitheness.

― Reed Moore (diamond), Thursday, 16 September 2004 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

TS: Raggett's Mindnumbing Blitheness vs. Ned's Atomic Dustbin

― amateur!!st, Thursday, 16 September 2004 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

i just hate, hate people's insistance on the importance of lyrics. music is about sound, not words. most musicians can't write decent lyrics anyway.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:01 (twenty-one years ago)

that's why i tend to hate singer-songwriter sorts of music.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

WARNING: NOT A REAL DEBATE

― amateur!!st, Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry, that sounded harsh but I think it's a bit disingenuous of Ned to pull an ages old Ewing comment out of context in order to defend his own intractable position ("arguing that lyrics need not be paramount" -- is that what Tom was doing?) Plus the basic fact that we get it Ned, new schtick plz k thx etc.

ANyway, Joy Division rocks! I still haven't picked up the box set, what's wrong with me, etc

― Reed Moore (diamond), Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:06 (twenty-one years ago)

the box set, as good as it is, has the most insufferably pretentious/nonsensical liner notes EVER and i do not mean that lightly. (rivalled only by the liner notes to the reissue of sonic youth's daydream nation. but i think those might be a joke.)

― amateur!!st, Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

OF COURSE that's what Tom was doing! Did you even go back and look at the context before spouting off?

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Does anyone know if the version of "24 Hours" from some vinyl pressings of Still has appeared anywhere on CD???

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:09 (twenty-one years ago)

who the fuck argues that "lyrics need be paramount" around here?

http://www.easterncoastcostume.com/Pages/crowns/strawman.jpg

― amateur!!st, Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Right, Dan, in this instance -- sure, Tom is saying they aren't important. I meant in terms of an overall philosophy, a way of approaching all music ever, which is the way Ned approaches it; that was my point. I've read enough of Tom's writing to know that he gives them a lot of consideration at times.

― Reed Moore (diamond), Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:11 (twenty-one years ago)

i get the (perhaps false) impression that ned sort of enjoys lazily mischaracterizing those who would argue with him re. lyrics. (i mean, seriously, who argues that "lyrics need be paramount" around here, or anywhere?) whenever we get into actual debate ned proves more respectful and nuanced. so the "blithe" comments that rob decries feel a bit like a sucker-punch delivered after you've already shaken hands. i know it's not intended as such. but perhaps that explains the anger than ned's ostensibly harmless comments sometimes provoke.

― amateur!!st, Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I CRUCIFY YOUR OFF-HANDED COMMENTS WITH GUNS

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:22 (twenty-one years ago)

the box set, as good as it is, has the most insufferably pretentious/nonsensical liner notes EVER and i do not mean that lightly. (rivalled only by the liner notes to the reissue of sonic youth's daydream nation. but i think those might be a joke.)
-- amateur!!st (-...), September 16th, 2004.

i sure hope they're a joke.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 16 September 2004 17:23 (twenty-one years ago)

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