PONO - Where Music Lives

As he poked around the Pono
It was switched from line to phono
He came into the web site
He left beside himself, somethin ain't right

Does anyone know anything about this site? I'm slightly intrigued but probably at those prices I'd just buy physical albums

http://www.hdtracks.com/

i think that's the go-to site for audiophile 24 bit downloads, that was one of the things ppl were saying about the PONO store is that it was basically just trying to be HD Tracks which was already pretty robust

the thing that sucks about the audiophile industry and that rhetoric is that it's created this impression that it's all this crazy, ridiculous multi-thousand dollar thing that's not attainable for regular folks when the reality is the opposite! we're in a golden age of affordable great sound equipment....
for a few hundred you could get some great self-powered speakers by a quality manufacturer and an entry level DAC that would knock your socks off! heck for, around 1000 or 1200 you could outfit a great turntable, amp, and speakers! it's really never been easier or cheaper than it is right now and the difference might surprise you...
hell, i'm listening to $30 Monoprice headphones right now at work that would destroy expensive ones from the 80s or 90s...it's insane!
― gimme the lute (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, March 11, 2014 12:15 PM (7 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i would love a series of no-nonsense recommendations for relatively inexpensive but excellent audio components that i could buy one at a time toward the end of having a relatively inexpensive but excellent audio system to play LPs, CDs, MP3s, FLACs... and listen to the radio.

if you go on the internet there's simply so much info, and I have little sense of what sources to trust. it seems for every piece of gear there's one person saying this is a godsend and another saying it's a piece of junk.

i'm suspicious of HD tracks, can anyone tell the difference between your standard FLACs and 24-bit FLACs? i mean, you'd have to have a pretty incredible sound system to even begin to notice the difference, no? i'm not yet completely convinced I can usually hear the difference between a good V0/320 MP3 rip and a FLAC rip. at least not on my stereo system (much less on my laptop).

anyway...

i'd love good recommendations for...

- a good DAC for my mac laptop
- a excellent turntable for under $500

now, my receiver/stereo has phono input, do i still need/want a standalone phono preamp?

sorry i know this is the PONO thread but people seem to be talking all things audio.

HD tracks are mastered directly from analog masters, right?

aren't most or at least many digital masters much less than 24bit in the first place? meaning you wouldn't gain anything to hear them in 24bit. that's certainly true of the first few generations of digital masters (which include things like 1980s fleetwood mac albums IIRC).

and alien ant farm is exactly what i mean (set aside the issue that an alien ant farm song will never sound good even if it was from god's speakers to your ears)... it was probably recorded using some late 90s digital format that isn't anywhere near up to the sonic capacity of a 24bit file.

FWIW i can usually tell the difference between e.g. 128 MP3s and 320 MPs... but beyond that it gets harder. of course it's hard to compare unless you are literally comparing e.g. a 320 MP3 and a FLAC rip from the same exact CD. if you're listening to two different masters then the differences are probably from other than the different formats.

Can someone explain to me whether/why HDTracks would be preferable to just getting a CD and ripping it to your computer at the highest rate? Does "directly from the analog masters" mean better than CD?

I think they offer better than 44.1 KHz/16 bit (CD quality) audio as an option, which would require going back to the original master tapes and making a new transfer at a higher quality.

Also lots of people don't want to own actual things these days and would rather pay through the nose for bits.

HDTracks files in higher resolutions (usually 24bit/96KHz) are invariably sourced from the SACDs, although a few dedicated masters are cropping up. 24 bits means that there is less background noise than a CD, and sampling at 96KHz rather than 44.1KHz means that a wider range of frequencies are are captured. However (a) the lower noise floor is of no practical use since you're very unlikely to listen to music loud enough to hear it, and (b) CDs capture the entire range of frequencies human ears can detect, so reproducing frequencies outside of that is fairly pointless. It would like a TV that displays IR and UV - terrific technical exercise, but utterly pointless in the real world.

Audiophiles will tell you that the harmonics of the non-audible frequencies interact with the audible frequencies and so to get an accurate reproduction of the music "in the control room", you need these extra frequencies. Saying that, no-one has ever been able to tell the difference between CDs and high resolution audio in an blind ABX test, and the well-regarded audiokarma.org forum prohibits discussion of the benefits of high-definition audio because there's no evidence that the difference is detectable, even if you're listening REALLY hard.

Annoyingly, SACDs (and so HDTracks files) often DO sound better than their CD counterparts, but that's becsause more care goes into the mastering process since the kind of people who buy SACDs are more likely to care about SQ. Even "from the analogue masters" isn't a guarentee of quality because if the mastering process has been screwed up, it may still sound terrible (although not many do by all accounts).

xp so far as recomendations for gear:

- DAC: The Audioquest Dragonfly DAC is the size of a USB stick, looks great, sounds amazing, on Amazon for $145. If you want something you can use to amp your mp3 player as well, I'd recommend the Fiio E17 for around the same price. It's bulkier and not as attractive but its got a battery and you can plug it straight into your ipod/iphone.

- Turntable: Project make good entry-level turntables. I've got the Project Debut Carbon ($400) which I'm really happy with. I wouldn't recommend getting a turntables much cheaper than this since cheaper turntables often press the stylus harder onto the vinyl causing your records to sound audibly worse over time., while a turntable with lighter tracking will mitigate this effect.

EBay is your friend for most of this stuff. Audiophiles tend to take good care of their gear and upgrade fairly frequently and so bargains can be had without too much effort.

thanks so much for the recommendations. they will come in handy. eventually i will upgrade my receiver/preamp and speakers as well. any recommendations for those?

Annoyingly, SACDs (and so HDTracks files) often DO sound better than their CD counterparts, but that's becsause more care goes into the mastering process since the kind of people who buy SACDs are more likely to care about SQ. Even "from the analogue masters" isn't a guarentee of quality because if the mastering process has been screwed up, it may still sound terrible (although not many do by all accounts).

― DISMISSED AS CHANCE (NotEnough), Thursday, October 16, 2014 2:53 AM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

right ... if a label is bothering with a SACD then there's a greater likelihood that they're taking care to find the best elements and to remaster them thoughtfully. as is often the case, the putatively inherent differences between formats comes down instead to differences in the mastering process.

oh also...

now, my receiver/stereo has phono input (and therefore i assume it has a built-in phono premap)... do i still need/want a standalone phono preamp?

HDTracks files in higher resolutions (usually 24bit/96KHz) are invariably sourced from the SACDs, although a few dedicated masters are cropping up

oh i should add that HDtracks are available for albums that never received a SACD or DVD-Audio release (or any release in one of the seemingly myriad HD audio formats)... e.g. a few Prince albums. so those are likely dedicated masters.

Oh yes, the debut turntable has no inbuilt preamp so you will need one of those. Your amp probably doesn't have one built in despite having an input labeled Phono, tho its worth checking the manual just in case. Above the level of super cheap ones, preamps make very little difference in SQ so don't spend a fortune, you should be able to get an adequate one for way less than $100.

i'm using a technics turntable right now with my receiver/amp w/o a standalone preamp and it works just fine... i guess i was just wondering if buying a nicer preamp would improve the sound any.

If you've got a technics 1200 then iim not sure it would be worth upgrading to a project tbh. Those things are built like a tank and sound really good. If its old and had lots of use then it might be worth getting a new cartridge, but I'm not sure you'll notice much of a difference on a turntable upgrade unless you want to drop >$1000.

It's all really disappointing because I would gladly pay for some fancy player and fancy master-sourced files as, like, the luxury experience for certain beloved records. Instead, they're trying to sell LOTS OF THE MUSICS through their mysterious box, which just reeks of snake oil.

if i wanted to rebuild my music listening entirely from scratch and have options like using streaming services like spotify, having speakers around the house and iphone-controllable sonos-style, and also be good for watching movies (but i could probably go w/o surround, tbh)... uh... what should i do

probably make sure everything supports airplay, buy a bunch of speakers ...???? profit!

airplay always didn't work for me :(

i'm trying to decide between sonos + a good amp i can hook up a turntable to and... i dunno... a cheap mac mini? and stuff?

If Spotify had a service along the lines of streaming HDTracks quality music I would probably pay triple what I currently pay. Spotify does offer higher bitrate streaming, but the files themselves seem to have mixed quality control.

https://ponomusic.force.com/ccrz__CCPage?pageKey=product&oId=of%3A7ab373c879474d4abf3e49cd35c3876e&type=Album&artistId=undefined

lol'd so hard when this link opened, ty whiney

- DAC: The Audioquest Dragonfly DAC is the size of a USB stick, looks great, sounds amazing, on Amazon for $145. If you want something you can use to amp your mp3 player as well, I'd recommend the Fiio E17 for around the same price. It's bulkier and not as attractive but its got a battery and you can plug it straight into your ipod/iphone.

- Turntable: Project make good entry-level turntables. I've got the Project Debut Carbon ($400) which I'm really happy with. I wouldn't recommend getting a turntables much cheaper than this since cheaper turntables often press the stylus harder onto the vinyl causing your records to sound audibly worse over time., while a turntable with lighter tracking will mitigate this effect.

^^was gonna suggest the Dragonfly

pair them with these and you'd have great sound for really cheap: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FE9XGVM/ref=asc_df_B00FE9XGVM3364545?smid=A14FMGGKFTICNN&tag=mysimon-pc03-20&linkCode=df0&creative=395129&creativeASIN=B00FE9XGVM

project turntables are very good....i have a Rega which I love and is very comparable:

http://www.amazon.com/REGA-RP1WHT-Rega-Turntable-White/dp/B004B3GO9I/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1413470035&sr=1-2&keywords=rega+rp1

I'm upgrading my Rega and I am sooooo stoked

What upgrades you getting? I always assume that the difference turntable upgrades make are marginal...

I dunno: most amps with a dedicated Phono input will have a built-in phono amp, so probably no need to worry about that. I also use and recommend a Project turntable, but depending on what model Technics you have now you might be fine just getting a new cartridge and needle. When you eventually replace your receiver and speakers, you might want to look into powered speakers, like the Audioengines linked above, which will eliminate the need for a separate amp -- though you'll still need a phono pre-amp and/or a full pre-amp depending on how many inputs you need for different sources.

Socki: if you've got the budget for it, Sonos is fantastic. I've used Airplay for many years in a couple of homes and have never gotten it to work consistently. Sonos is rock-solid and dead simple, everything Apple promises but doesn't deliver on when it comes to streaming in my opinion. It can get crazy expensive though if you're setting up a number of rooms -- the unit to hook up a single existing amp is $350. Though I've found their least expensive speaker ($200, built-in amp) works great for casual, non-critical listening in modestly-sized rooms.

my jaw left: Check out Deezer. Spotify-style service but with HD streaming. I think it's $10/mo for the first year and $20/mo after that. I haven't used it so don't know how the interface compares with Spotify.

thanks! yeah, i tried airplay literally for years, and was constantly frustrated with dropouts and mysterious missing audio. it drove me insane.

question re sonos : does it do gapless playback of tracked mixtapes ?

quite tempted to install a NAS drive on my home network, and then wire a sonos into my amp.

but i seem to have read that like most mp3 players, tracked mixtapes get the dreaded second drop between tracks.

apparently deezer soon to be, but not yet, in the US

My concern, again, is not just bitrate but actual file quality/quality control. I sometimes find certain Spotify files sound pretty bad even at high bitrate.

note : current promo = 12 months free deezer with sonos from a certain uk supplier.

still, does not resolve my one my issue ..

and the reason i am keen is cos playing mp3s via a network option on my amp is a lot better quality than via the headphone output on the laptop, however, the amp has a very limited visual aspect, making it impossible to navigate a 3000+ album catalogue.

I don't recall if I've tried a tracked mixtape specifically, but Sonos does support gapless playback and it works fine for me for e.g. regular albums and live stuff that I've downloaded from nyctaper. As long as the mixtape was encoded properly I don't think it would be an issue.

re: Deezer the source files are lossless. They're standard CD quality though so I shouldn't have said HD. It is actually available now in the US in beta for Sonos users; not sure when the general rollout is.

ooh .. the urge has just upped a notch.

ta.

What upgrades you getting? I always assume that the difference turntable upgrades make are marginal...

no I mean I'm upgrading to an RP3 Elys.

thanks! yeah, i tried airplay literally for years, and was constantly frustrated with dropouts and mysterious missing audio. it drove me insane.

― socki (s1ocki), Thursday, October 16, 2014 10:46 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes! i've lived in several apartments and airplay hasn't been dependable in any of them. i even got one of those thingies (forget the actual name) that apple sold that you plug into the wall and then plug your stereo into, so i could send itunes through my stereo system/speakers. it worked about 1/2 the time, and every time it was unplugged it took like ten tries to get it to work again.

one of the worst purchases i've made honestly

Is it worth staring a general purpose "stuff I listen to music on" thread? All this gear talk is fascinating but I'm not sure its got much to do with PONO-related snakeoil.

yeah i would love a thread for that

there are already a bunch of threads with 'audiophile' or 'hi-fi' in the titles. bump one of those (and post a link here)

lots of discussion of Sonos etc. on Maintaining a Digital Music Collection ... I'd like to hear more about people's solutions for home streaming systems, my antique Squeezeboxes are working fine right now but they are definitely not Pono-ready

I think I've said before, but Volumio running on a Raspberry B+ with the HiFiberry DAC+ & Wifi USB dongle then get a NAS that supports uPnP.

conversion & streaming up to 24/192, tiny size and all for about £150.

Good sound as well as good DAC chips are actually quite cheap, its all the other stuff that costs (& hefty markup to make it look expensive)

I would pay good money for someone to write a firmware for the Squeezebox that stopped relying on squeezeserver.

Fwiw, PONO as a device isn't snake oil, I read an audiophile site break down the components and they were all well known complements, very good DAC and headphone amp, the said it was actually very cheap for the quality

I mean at the end if the day it's just a high end portable player, there's no voodoo

But there is Sammy Hagar's Red Voodoo: https://ponomusic.force.com/ccrz__CCPage?pageKey=product&oId=of%3Adeafb337ddc94c42b85d3b353106ec6f&type=Album&artistId=undefined

I'd like to hear more about people's solutions for home streaming systems

There's a pretty good rundown of currently and soon-to-be available systems here:
http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/sonos-player/

I love my Sonos but don't have the budget right now to connect as many rooms as I'd like, so I still use Airplay in a couple of rooms. The system seems more reliable/robust since I've attached my Airport Expresses to powerline adapters -- they're little boxes with ethernet connections that you plug in to outlets to essentially turn your home's electrical system into a wired network. One attaches to my router and sends data over the electric wiring to other ones throughout the house, which are connected to the Airports. Still isn't foolproof but I seem to get much fewer dropouts now.

i find that my airport express just kind of shuts itself off when it doesn't feel like playing along. i've had two of them and they both have done that.

xp Yes, incorporating powerline adapters was key to defeating dropouts on my home system

i did at one point consider powerline adapters but then i started to think i was losing my mind