FKA twigs

"They're "women who make electronic music and dance" but other than that are really quite different in terms of what they're doing, how they're doing it and what they're trying to achieve "

Are they really though? Even Twigs interviews come off sounding like Grimes. They've also both had very reminiscent career paths, a few faceless releases under radar building up to mainstream acclaim culminating around the narrative of her weirdness and mystery "where did she come from who is she". They both sing in a whispy high falsetto, Grimes more so, and both dance with classical training. No one is saying they are the same human being, but they're both products of this moment.

No one is saying that they are the same human being, but we have been saying, repeatedly, on this thread, and others, that if you are only able to compare female artists to other female artists, instead of looking around to see what other (male) artists in the same movements that they might be comparable to, *that* is an attitude that is deeply informed by sexism.

Isn't it funny how two women both have high-pitched, feminine voices! That makes them so exactly the same! No one would say the same thing about two men that sang in deep voices? The "girl on the bus" versus "art school" (what I called "ethereal") is interesting in that it's partly complicated by class (singing in a more natural accent versus a "posh" or affected accent) but is also about training and artifice - going for those kinds of conservatoire singing tones because they sustain better.

It's interesting how Roz made a post comparing and contrasting Grimes' ballet instruction with Twigs' more classically trained dance background in a way that both illuminated its effect on them as artists, and managed not to insult dance as a medium without sounding sexist and dismissive like "dances around in the same way?" did. (It's really telling that you picked up on the dismissiveness of that phrase when I repeated it, but not when you originally stated it.)

"Compare the way that two female musicians are seen by the mainstream media" is shooting fish in a fucking barrel. I'd really hope that after years of these kinds of discussions, ILM would have moved past that. The ways that the media talk about female musicians are gross. We really don't have to duplicate that here.

You really seem pissed at that phrasing "dance around" don't you? All this condescending inferring b/c I said dance around? Would you have preferred rhythmical maneuvers? creative body shifts? elegant motions?

I would prefer if *you* stopped projecting motives and emotions such as "pissed off" and "condescending" into my actions and words. That'd be a start, thanks.

You're acting as though she's being compared to Rihanna, Iggy, Janelle, Lordes, MIA or w/e female artist with no real resemblance. Your accusations of sexism might hold weight in that case.

So looking past -

ethereal falsetto vocals
similar career paths
same ages
similar genre
same balletic inspired dance
more than a passing resemblance in appearance
similar discussions in their interviews about roles of sexism in industry
writes own lyrics & self produces
same ethereal, celestial dainty music videos
both seen sans eyebrows

lets not speak of this again.

I'll end with this. Enjoy your day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R00Vu7Ag7s

At least half the things you list have to do with either their gender, or their appearance! And the few that aren't ("writes own lyrics and self produces", FFS? How broad is that?) You are not making a good case, either for your argument, or for the idea that your argument isn't deeply imbued with sexism.

Lots of people on this thread have been able to compare and contrast the work of Twigs and Grimes without lapsing into this dumb bullshit. You aren't one of them. Please go away and change your diaper because your shit is seriously starting to stink.

You won't quit will you. Well you ignored every other point in all my posts about the pretty obvious similarities between them but

"writes own lyrics and self produces", FFS? How broad is that

Um, in todays industry, not that broad at all really.

"At least half the things you list have to do with either their gender, or their appearance!"

Nope, actually only one was. But go ahead.

Would you have sexism issues with people comparing 2Pac and Big, Dylan and Guthrie, Cash and Haggard?

Earlier in the thread you said

But guys. C'mon. R&B? This is straight-up 4AD!

And then you shit on someone comparing her to Bjork

Bjork? What, coz she wears *princess leia braids*? You guys are just grabbing at straws with the ~ladyproducers~ here.

Loosen up with the sexist accusations to people you have absolutely no idea about, based on straw men.

There's probably a Master thesis here: "Towards a typology of coprological metaphors on ILX and the epistemological origins of shitting up/shit-flinging/change your nappy zings in thread discourses with particular reference to FKA Twigs and PJ Harvey"

They've also both had very reminiscent career paths, a few faceless releases under radar building up to mainstream acclaim culminating around the narrative of her weirdness and mystery "where did she come from who is she"

lol this is a very well-worn PR strategy for countless "credible" acts who gain a semi-mainstream profile, whether they're bands or producers or female solo artists, indeed so well-worn that it's p much a cliché now

ethering your points would be like taking from a candy from a baby tbh and i can't be bothered

The "girl on the bus" versus "art school" (what I called "ethereal") is interesting in that it's partly complicated by class (singing in a more natural accent versus a "posh" or affected accent) but is also about training and artifice - going for those kinds of conservatoire singing tones because they sustain better.

this is more interesting - with both holter and herndon it sort of bothered me because i felt it ended up sounding a bit blank and emotionless, as if there wasn't much at stake for them. (herndon's new single is really guilty of this.) even when i loved the music, the songwriting, the production, the ideas, it made is resistant to really hitting me emotionally. twigs isn't as extreme as them but that was certainly a barrier for me at first. k8 - what's your take on how the convey emotion via this deliberate stylistic (and stylised?) choice? compared to singing styles that might be more "obviously" emotional...

"Pretty obvious similarities"

ethereal falsetto vocals - gendered
similar career paths - meaning what?
same ages - appearance
similar genre - what genre is that?
same balletic inspired dance - appearance
more than a passing resemblance in appearance - appearance
similar discussions in their interviews about roles of sexism in industry - gendered
writes own lyrics & self produces - so broad as to be meaningless
same ethereal, celestial dainty music videos - appearance
both seen sans eyebrows - appearance

I'm having trouble seeing how your argument rises above "skinny girls with high voices."

Self producing lyric writers could be anyone from Kate Bush to Paul Banks. Oh, wait, you mean *girls* who self-produce. That's not a gendered observation at all, now is it?

No, it would not be sexist to compare Dylan to Guthrie, but if you only ever compared Dylan to Guthrie and never ever mentioned e.g. Dylan as compared to Joni Mitchell - or, more saliently, only ever compared Joni Mitchell to Joan Baez, rather than Joni to Dylan.

If you want to prove "but I'm not a sexist!" you could try by just, I dunno, not saying dumb sexist things. Try harder.

lol this is a very well-worn PR strategy for countless "credible" acts who gain a semi-mainstream profile, whether they're bands or producers or female solo artists, indeed so well-worn that it's p much a cliché now

Whether it is or not that is the point that you apparently missed nevertheless it is still true of both their careers and not a p/r scheme regardless of whether it has been used defacto p.r scheme for other artists or not. So I'm not sure how you think you have discounted that valid point by validating it, although in an erroneous way.

Some prefer winning to being right, I guess.

Oh, wait, you mean *girls* who self-produce. That's not a gendered observation at all, now is it?

Another straw man, no where did I say or mean "girls" (as you put it) who produce or engender that statement in any, I simply said artists who write and produce. I don't know why you're adding gender to that. Again, turn yourself down.

No, it would not be sexist to compare Dylan to Guthrie,

Appreciate the confirmation

but if you only ever compared Dylan to Guthrie and never ever mentioned e.g. Dylan as compared to Joni Mitchell - or, more saliently, only ever compared Joni Mitchell to Joan Baez, rather than Joni to Dylan.

??... I have no idea how to reply to this imaginative accession of the idea, you've gone off the deep end.

this is more interesting - with both holter and herndon it sort of bothered me because i felt it ended up sounding a bit blank and emotionless, as if there wasn't much at stake for them. (herndon's new single is really guilty of this.) even when i loved the music, the songwriting, the production, the ideas, it made is resistant to really hitting me emotionally. twigs isn't as extreme as them but that was certainly a barrier for me at first. Branwell - what's your take on how the convey emotion via this deliberate stylistic (and stylised?) choice? compared to singing styles that might be more "obviously" emotional...

I dunno, I'm kinda bored of talking about singing styles as opposed to production choices at this point. Granted, choosing one particular vocal style *is* a production choice. Choosing a very formal, classical voice indicating distance over a warmer/rawer tone that indicates 'emotion' is as much a stylistic choice as choosing one kind of snare tone or one kind of synth pad over another. But we dwell so much on singing style, as opposed to the musical signifiers that I start to shy away from discussing it any further.

Like, I don't have a problem with blank or affected art school/ethereal vocal styles. Displaying emotion through singing technique has become such gendered affective labour in the electronic music world that I think it's a distinct choice to withhold emotion. I admire female producers who are just "admire my technique" rather than "here, I am performing the affective labour of ~singing~ for you."

But this is not the kind of argument that goes down well on ILM.

wait i didn't realise I was arguing with CharlieXCX fans. nevrmind!

ho ho!

maybe yr looking for the fk wits thread instead?

You really can tell ~so much~ about people by the things they think are insults?

One of your favourites being 'fuck off and die in a fire'

Aw, Bob, it really touches my heart that you care enough to stalk my twitter so often. It's lovely to know you care so passionately! Anyone else would find that... I dunno, kinda creepy. But we all know you're fine with how creepy you appear.

"but if you only ever compared Dylan to Guthrie and never ever mentioned e.g. Dylan as compared to Joni Mitchell - or, more saliently, only ever compared Joni Mitchell to Joan Baez, rather than Joni to Dylan"

see, this sort of gets at one of the reasons I don't like the "never compare female artists only to other female artists" canard. why does a comparison have to be to someone like Dylan to be legit? and why is "someone like Dylan" always, well, people like Bob Dylan? basically it's a way to do an end-run around the canon while still reinforcing the canon.

(the counterpart for male artists might address that, but in practice very few people think that way -- virtually the only time this is brought up is when female artists are being discussed.)

I get what you're saying, katherine, in terms of that sneaking suspicion that comparing women to men is done as one of things which is done to imply legitimacy towards the man rather than towards the women (in which case, you can't win either way.) I didn't specifically pick Dylan as the example, just grabbed him out of the previous comment. But I do think it's much more important to do it the other way around - stress the importance of the influence of female artists on male artists - because that's the one that gets left out so much of the time.

But I do still think that it's an attitude riddled with sexism to only compare female artists to female artists AND only compare male artists to male artists, even if you are damned if you don't, as well as damned if you do.

I think women and electronic music is a really interesting topic. But I'm also interested in Donna Haraway's notion of Cyborg-feminism. Grimes, FKA Twigs, The Knife, Tune-yards, even the role-play of Janelle Monae. There are a lot of women making really, really exciting futuristic music at the moment, and a lot of it seems to revolve around gender and sexuality - though obviously not exclusively so. I definitely think there is something to be gained from looking at these artists together. But any discussion of that should probably also include queer-electronica like Baths, Matmos, even something like Owen Pallett (loops like Tune-yards, but, yeah...) and Autre ne Veut (he's not gay, I think, but I've always thought his music sounded gender-breaking, and obviously we're talking about music rather than persons).

Anyways, the way Raccoon Tanuki goes about it is just reductive. What do we gain by discussing whether or not Grimes and Twigs has both been seen without eyebrows? I mean, what the fuck? And also, the fact that there are interesting comparisons to be made doesn't mean the constant uninteresting reductivist grouping together can't be sexist.

Why do we never talk about sex and gender on... oh the Aphex Twin thread? Why is it only women and queers that are the repository for ~thoughts about gender~?

Well, sexism, obviously. But also, women and queers often have more intelligent things to say about these issues. But mostly sexism, I think.

Well all the thoughts about Twigs & gender on this thread seem to be about how she's described and who she's compared to - nothing about gender in the record itself.

I've been trying to figure out why half of this album reminds me lyrically of Robert Smith and failing. I think it's partially my brain trying to connect one thing I like to another thing I like but there's some passing similarity between her narrative voice and Smith's more straightforward, less "I've taken all the drugs" metaphorfests.

Also, after discovering the "pull out the incisor" line I am reminded very strongly of thematic links to Purity Ring, particularly "Fineshrine".

Kim or Fox?

Reminding me now of Channel Orange

I've been trying to figure out why half of this album reminds me lyrically of Robert Smith and failing.

sad/goth in a way that seems "knowing" but not in a way that jeopardizes its effectiveness in a more direct sense

honestly don't see the hype about this one. Yes it's got that whole kate bush meets boards of canada jamming in the basement kinda "vibe" but it ultimately leaves me cold. and the visual aspect, well let's just say annie lennox did it better in the 80s, and i didn't like it then either. despite these criticisms, i'm calling a solid eighter from the pitchfork boys and a possible bnm. looking forward to anthony fantano's take on this one. just my 2 cents..

http://www.theaa.com/resources/images/article-detail/insurance/carbon-monoxide-gas-safety.gif

I can't get the notion that sex and gender in male-made electronic music is completely ignored out of my head. So true, so interesting, I think. Listening to Man-Machine right now, it's so obviously also about gender-roles. Any interest in a new thread?

Fantano has spoken.

I like it. But I'd also like a '90s Tricky produced Grimes album. Trip Hop never died.

why exactly are we giving a fuck about anything anthony fantano has to say now?

I was curious as to why too. Just responding to missingNO above.

so people are wondering why this cool/alternative artist is dating the posh teen idol from twilight films who is a multi millionaire. she went to a private school, which in England is never anything but hugely expensive and full of elites stuck perpetually eternally in the past while at the same time being in the modern day (vampires), she's spent most her life only associating with rich people (millionaire). the school was also catholic (heavy christian/chastity themes in twilight obvs), she said in her interview she was often looked at as being weird and ugly by people in her school being the only black student (twilight lone outsider theme). he's actually a perfect match. <3

http://collegecandy.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/ebdnhxm.gif?w=640

http://avvesione.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/uchouten_kazoku-11-mother_shimogamo-tanuki-red-cute-worried-crying-sad-adorable.jpg?w=533&h=300

ILX threads are so predictable now days....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLjiArIJsLc

and it still sounds like tom petty

saw her live this week, impressive. big stage presence, great voice, sounds sounded good and even enhanced live which isn't always the case with electronic acts for example 'Numbers' sounded much, much better live than it does on the album in almost every way. Maybe this was a problem with the recording and engineering on the lp because live it had a lot more energy, fuller booming sound which I think fits it style. Crowd was very receptive and full. It was the Birmingham 'hometown' show she stopped at one point to say this show was emotional for her because her family are from Birmingham and a christmas day anecdote. She also stopped in the middle of the show to sign something for someone at the front, which I'd never seen before. Considering she's so new to this it was also noticable how easily she fills up an hour+ set with good songs that all work well live. There wasn't really any 'down' periods of the set. Considering this is the start of her first ever UK tour she seemed like composed been doing it for longer. There wasn't as much of the crazily impressive dance moves shown on like that yt video of her nY show she was more restrained in her moves but was dancing pretty much all the way through which added energy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99YyWeqHaBo

okay twigs

FKAtofu

if she could dance like that after using google glass imagine how she could have danced after a bowl of frosted flakes

she'd kill tony the tiger with some sugar-fueled crane kicks, obvs.

album is still flames idc how many commercials she appears in.