FKA twigs

A lot of projection going on here. I didn't actually talk about hanging round back doors and I didn't actually use the phrase "begging for offcuts", which you put in quotation marks upthread and have repeated here, which adds an additional gross dimension even before you go all out with the sex worker language. You shouldn't actually need to resort to this sort of rhetorical dishonesty.

And there's this automatic assumption, right there with Jessy Lanza (and previously with Barbara Panther, and previously FFS even with people like Bjork) that if a female singer is being promoted, she's just singing or doing something decorative over the top of a producer's creative work, rather than being a songwriter or creative driving force or even a collaboration. "

The thing is, you aren't actually listening to me or engaging with what I'm saying, you're arguing with a prevalent attitude (which definitely exists and which I pretty much agree with you about). In the Barbara Panther thread I actually said the exact opposite of what you seem to think I said (and talked about Bjork there as well). I don't actually believe that Aaliyah was just a cipher for Timbaland or any of that stuff, Twigs would only be the "loophole girl" if you hadn't read my posts about Katy B or Beyonce or Jessie Ware or a host of other female artists who aren't seen as traditionally auterish. Even the phrase "phones up Bok Bok or Kode9 for their offcuts" which is dickish (I am capable of acknowledging when I am being a dick, although I reserve the right to be a facetious dick about scenes I dislike) doesn't actually contain presumptions about whether or not the singer writes the songs.

somehow, get a vocalist (usually female) singing over the top of someone's beats, and that is just assumed to be decoration, "jobbing musician" work, where she has no more agency than the 303 that provided that bassline

There's a nuanced discussion to be had around this if you're interested in having one. The extent to which a record is producer-driven or artist-driven (or label-driven) varies from record to record. I don't actually think vocals are ever just decoration, even when the vocalist just turns up and sings what's given to them, because as I said upthread performance is what really matters and performance is as much a part of the creative process as songwriting is. Lots of people think the opposite but these people are basically the worst.

But a lot of the time the producer they're working with is an integral part of the sound as well (eg Katy B + Geeneus) and talking about their contribution is entirely valid as long as you don't pretend it's just a producer's record rather than a collaborative project. Then there are records where there are glaring mismatches between producer/songwriters and singers (ie some Ciara stuff) and then it's worth exploring why something doesn't work. I am more of a sonics person than a lyrics person which does skew my discussion in one direction.

Unless of course it's Nicki Minaj, in which case, someone will point out the number of male co-writers on the track

The number of male co-writers on a track is an entirely pertinent detail to point out in a discussion about whether a track is grossly patriarchal or subversively feminist, as much as it was on the Electrik Red thread when you said "despite all the gurl power stylings, they are still females singing men's words".

or any other time some jobbing vocalist phones up Kode9 or Bok Bok for their offcuts.

― Matt DC, Saturday, September 6, 2014 9:43 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Your word.

You don't keep track of the actual words you use, then accuse me of not paying attention? I'm not really interested in this kind of game-playing.

It's a shame because there is an interesting discussion to be had, but not under these circumstances.

Exactly. I didn't use the phrase "begging for offcuts" that you quoted me as saying, and I don't believe you are unaware of the literal, rhetorical or emotive difference, or you wouldn't have used it.

Words have connotations, though you are playing the rhetorical game of trying to pretend that they don't.

That you say "jobbing vocalist" and bring with it the association of "hack" as opposed to something neutral like "session musician".

You say "offcuts" and bring with it the etymological derivation of offal, rotting meat and begging for scraps instead of using something neutral like "B-sides".

Then try to play this game that they are just ~neutral terms~ instead of pejoratives? "Oh, I didn't mean it that way" is not the same thing as "these words do not have pejorative connotations." Which I'm certain that *you* were aware of, or you would have chosen other, more neutral words.

BRB, just going to phone up and beg for a pizza.

A hack begging for waste products is a *very* different image from a session musician phoning a producer up for a piece of music to work on. The latter implies a partnership; the former implies something gross. Do not try to pretend like the words you chose did not imply a certain relationship and power structure there.

Also I fully accept your point, my post was intended to convey disrespect (although I like offal a lot more than I like Hyperdub productions). And I used "jobbing vocalists" in the same way that I (*rushes for search function*) talk about jobbing nu-disco producers, jobbing pop-grime mcs and jobbing indie bands when I want to convey their unremarkableness.

I am not actually playing games with you, I have been (more or less calmly) responding to your points while quite reasonably objecting to your putting words in my mouth.

i think it's hard to know exactly who is involved with what, and to what extent when we're talking about a collaboration, and this ambiguity leaves the door open to sexist assumptions about the relative roles singers play in the production of their own music. kanye has worked with tons of collaborators on his last two albums but he is still discussed as an "auteur" where people are quicker to dismiss the contributions of female artists. i sat in on an english class for rising high school seniors in philadelphia this summer and the teacher at one point openly expressed skepticism that nicki minaj writes her own music and at the same time chastised the students for not appreciating the greatness of tupac. branwell basically otm.

This isn't confined to female singers, I've talked about jobbing male house vocalists on the Disclosure thread and jobbing grime MCs on the Ill Blu thread, sometimes jobbing vocalists are literally just that. Twigs clearly isn't any of these things.

No I basically agree that female artists get a load more shit from people denying their creative input than male ones do.

This is basically going to come down to whether I see a word as pejorative because of my context, or you see a word as not-so-pejorative because of differing context.

You admit that you used pejorative words because you intended disrespect towards Hyperdub, but in the process (what, with the hacks and the rotting meat) can you understand why someone would interpret that as being disrespectful towards vocalists? (Especially with regards to vocalists who *are* the named artist on the record, such as Jessy Lanza, rather than a session player who barely garners a "featuring" credit.)

With regards to the creative process and collaborations and how they work, look, unless A) you are in the recording studio with them or B) someone like FKA Twigs chooses to tell you in an interview how they work, you are basically just writing fan fiction, if you think you can tell, by listening to a finished record how that creative process worked or who was driving it (and it's possible for more than one writer to drive a project.)

My point is, again and again, people are FAR more willing to interpret a male collaborator as having agency than a female one. And your whole "oh, but I talk this way about ~male jobbing vocalists~ toooooo" sounds really far too close to a #NotAllMen.

And I'm not actually that interested in talking about ~how collaborations work~ because quite frankly, one of the people in this conversation has worked at different times in their life, both as a producer writing for other singers, and as a session player turning up to add bits for money. And the other person is basically writing fan fiction based on records and labels they like or don't like. The answer to how collaborations work is genuinely: IT DEPENDS. But the gendering of who is seen as an agent in a collaboration and who is not, that is a constant, and it's a boring one I cannot believe I am wasting another sunny Sunday afternoon getting into, yet again.

Well, I didn't know 'offcut' meant rotten meat, so I've learned something today. I just thought it meant not prime cut, but the more you learn.

An offcut means the bit you have left over after your other work (be it meat, wood, whatever).

You never know exactly how a recording process works (and talking about the finished product is usually more interesting than talking about the process) but in some cases you can take an educated guess - ie if there are multiple producers with a highly unified aesthetic (like this album) or if the songwriting and production sounds very similar to what the songwriters/producers do for everyone else, or if the producer's usual sonic signifiers are absent (like the Omar Souleyman record produced by Four Tet).

(I really mean the producer-artist dynamic, not the process, I'm none the wiser as to how this album was made)

funny how when I raised the exact same point about pc music it was "the most repulsive thing I've ever read"

Like to shout out all the session musicians, jobbers, backing vocalists, hired guns, hacks, you all made some of the greatest pop music. Waddylyfe

as for "offcuts" I've read enough mixed metaphors that the idea of someone using "offcuts" and intending a pejorative meaning is... rather difficult to believe (plus, if we're going to nitpick offensive metaphors then "fuck it with guns" would come rather higher up on the list than "offcuts," which is why I suggest we don't.) as for "jobbing," it's kind of hard to believe that anyone who's in the business of music writing sees this as an insult given that music writing in 2014 consists almost entirely of jobbing. some things are just jobs, you know? rent must get paid.

In my experience, the gauzy veil is often drawn round the truth of who did what post-recording. As we're getting subjectif and theoretic like, I wonder if FKA Twigs is 'collaborating', as she has a creative agenda to pursue (whoever she records with), 'cause I agree with Janny Wurts who sez:

‘To collaborate, you have to let go. The outcome will not be your work anymore, but something else altogether. You will not control it. It is going to be different. If you can handle the idea that the concept will go its own way, and be other than what you expect, then you're in line for a successful partnership. You need to respect your partner -- know their strengths and also know your own -- and just step in and let the synergy happen. The peril is in getting too attached, or trying to hang on to your private identity. If you can't free wheel and just let things happen, let that juggernaut go its own way, you will be miserable. Sometimes the tightest friction that arises in the collaborative process gives rise to the most transcendent bits of inspiration. The trick is to look for the silver lining, not get sucked into the mire of arguing.’

....and I think that applies to this thread too ;)

No, it doesn't surprise me that a music writer would see "jobbing hack" as non-pejorative, or why.

"Offcuts" dictionary denotation means scraps. In carpentry, it's sawdust and those little odd-shaped bits of wood too small to use for other jobs. But it's definitely picked up a pejorative connotation due to its association with butchery and offal.

And yes, "fuck it with guns" is an offensive term, it is an old ILX phrase with a history as the most offensive thing one can say about something, and was used deliberately to show the height of my distaste for DC's language. So you can stop the pearl-clutching now.

I do actually have a great deal of respect for session players, jobbing musicians, backing vocalists and hired guns. Which is why it really offends me to see their work reduced to the level of sawdust and offal.

I mean, come on! Even DC has admitted that he intended what he said to be highly disrespectful. What we are arguing about is where that disrespect ended up being aimed.

I'm not pearl-clutching, I'm just pointing out how fruitless this path tends to be. (Besides, if we're being this pedantic, wouldn't it be the *producers'* work reduced to sawdust or offal?)

The "it doesn't surprise me that those hacks see 'hack' as non-pejorative!" comment is not worth addressing.

If I'm honest I was just kind of derisively gesturing in the direction of the entire scene, but I definitely eyeroll more towards the producers than the singers. Kelela I would probably like in a different context.

http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/radical-strain/

mentioned: fka twigs, some ilxors

She's nommed for the Mercury!

intention of that tni piece is cool but the execution is hideous

TNI piece OTM OTM OTM so fucking OTM it hurts and I really hope that "the execution is hideous" is some kind of ironic joke because if it is, it's failed, and if it's not, christ, you're hideous.

lmbo

lol

feel like the piece overrelies somewhat on critical darlings and the past five years (I mean, shit, if there was ever a topic to pull out the cliched-and-now-timely-too Kate Bush reference, this is it) but overall it's good

She's my favourite music writer tbqph

My relationship to this piece is complicated by how much I really don't care about Grimes. I don't find her interesting or compelling as a performer, either in the way that she sings or in how she puts together the music. I don't think this is due to a gendered dismissal but I don't really know; it's not something I've strongly interrogated in my musical consumption but I do know that I'm a big, big fan of every other critical darling namechecked in the piece (and thinking that CREEP, Planningtorock, Frankie Rose, Savages, Wax Idols, Glasser, tune-yards, Katy Perry and Taylor Swift all fit into this discussion in different ways).

I don't think it's off-limits to talk about the producers (if anything, it should be done more) but it should be done across the board

That is a good piece, The Knife section especially.

I feel like male rap and pop stars get the producer-centric approach more than rock bands do (most reviews of a Justin Timberlake album will spend a good paragraph or so talking about Timbaland) but that very rarely happens to indie bands unless they happen to be working a name producer like Fridmann or Weatherall.

More critics should be turning their guns on the vocal void that is the Cloud Nothings dude though, but Pitchfork-centric indie has such pitifully low standards when it comes to male vocalists in any case.

OK, over my half-drunken rant about her name and have listened to the album and it would appear to be very good, at least the first half.

I definitely have issues with that piece. I mean: I think the overall gist, that a lot of people who write for publications should probably think a little harder about the received wisdom about men's and women's roles, as undeniably true.

But like:
Like it does with women’s bodies, popular culture permits a narrow range of acceptable beauty in women’s voices. There’s a reason Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons has room to sing flat on a live television performance but Beyoncé is expected to catapult through multiple key changes with perfect tone and pitch. There’s a reason Lana Del Rey bore the undiluted resentment of her audience when she failed to sing charismatically on Saturday Night Live. There is a reason Britney Spears’ isolated, untreated vocals score listens in the millions every time they’re leaked and the guttural quality of Shakira’s voice is as hotly debated in YouTube comments as her sexual attractiveness. As an object of beauty for public consumption, a woman’s pleasantness must permeate the senses.

This isn't taking into account a LOT of different power dynamics that don't fit quite so easily into "girls have to be more pleasant than boys to make it" & fails to account for the different genre values...the focus on vocals in R&B is different from the values in rock ... and of course all of this is shaped by gender/class/race, but in much more complicated ways than she's engaging w/ here IMO. I mean for example: Beyonce is "pleasant"??

up until '4' I'd say that would be a fair statement to make (cf _Dreamgirls_), but I think the recent album was a deliberate attempt to screw with that

it's a fair statement to make about Beyonce's vocals across the board aside from examples like the shouted part of "Ring the Alarm"; Beyonce did not make her money off of singing ugly

Sure Dan, but neither does Frank Ocean

Maybe i'm being too harsh on the piece. There are just points where I'm like...idk ... quoting Jim Derogatis is when you know your polemical is relying a little heavily on the LCD rock cliches, you know?

It’s worth noting that Pitchfork gave Channel Orange a score of 9.5, a full point higher than Devotion.

....

R&B is about pretty singing. Kind of a trait of the genre, right?

Frank Ocean is given more room to sing ugly than Beyonce is.

well frank ocean's always been punching a bit out of his weight class as a singer anyway

trying to convey "ugliness" in R&B isn't done the same way it is in rock music regardless. Ugliness is more liable to be conveyed through personality than by vocal distortion—by affecting a derisive tone, by performing a different mood. It's a conceit of the genre that you are performing ideas perfectly.

even if those ideas are ideas of imperfection

is the imagine dragons guy one of those operatic metal belter dudes or just a nu metal groaner type

at any rate i'm not arguing against the overall thesis—as brad said, it's the execution

is the imagine dragons guy one of those operatic metal belter dudes or just a nu metal groaner type

― goole, Wednesday, September 10, 2014 5:15 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a yarl type

imagine dragons isn't a metal band goole, it's a bastille-ish, onerepublic-esque nu-poprock anthemic outfit

bastille-ish?

as in the hated symbol of the decrepit old order or is that a band

Imagine Dragons dude is a grunge baritone

This piece also got me thinking about Courtney Love; I love her on a bunch of Hole songs, particularly the angry ones, but there's a point in 200 Cigarettes where she's singing along with a jukebox (can't remember the song now) that came across as one of the worst vocal performances is ever heard. Context strikes me as a critical component of this.