Massive Club Fire at Great White concert

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Apparently the cameraman was there doing a followup piece to the Chicago stampede.. Probably something like "Nightclubbing: how safe are YOU?"

I know I'm going to check to see where the exits are at shows from now on (and never be too far from one..)

..wouldn't a place like that have been required to have a sprinkler system?

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 21 February 2003 12:25 (twenty-three years ago)

The place was too small; it didn't have to have a sprinkler system.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 21 February 2003 13:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Anyone from the Providence area know anyone who was there? My thoughts are with you.
The death toll is 39 and (probably) rising. What a fucking horrendous thing.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Friday, 21 February 2003 13:20 (twenty-three years ago)

I think about how the heck would I get out of this place when I go to shows all the time. Last time I was at TT the BEars for the Interpol show it was so damn crowded and I thought "how the hell could anyone get out of here if something happened" I think these clubs need to somehow not sell as many tickets and keep it under the maximum capacity. Or add additional exits or something. Just tragic.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Friday, 21 February 2003 13:25 (twenty-three years ago)

In Chicago, you're supposed to have six square feet per person. That's how capacity is determined. Now stop laughing.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 21 February 2003 14:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Also in Chicago, JAM Productions, who run shows at some of the major live music nightclubs - Park West, Riviera and the Vic, are going to have safety announcements before shows, pointing out the emergency exits and stuff. Metro is going to do the same.

Only thing is, when I was thinking of problematic deathtrap nightclubs in the city, I wasn't thinking of these places.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 21 February 2003 15:03 (twenty-three years ago)

I can remember getting crushed at the Riv ... I never felt so trapped at a show ... But the other places, never had a problem... Downstairs bars like the Smart Bar always freak me out a little..

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 21 February 2003 15:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Last time I was at TT the BEars for the Interpol show it was so damn crowded and I thought "how the hell could anyone get out of here if something happened"

i know they've undergone renovations since the last time i was there (almost 2 years ago) but wasn't there an emergency exit out to the back alley from the pool room?

― otto midnight, Friday, 21 February 2003 15:20 (twenty-three years ago)

No one checks these places out at night. I think there should be consumer groups who study the codes and go out at night and take notes.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 21 February 2003 16:17 (twenty-three years ago)

Call me an alarmist, but I think between the Chicago incident and this, the state of niteclub/small concert venue operation is going to change dramatically. Watch for closings in *your* neighborhood soon. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this tragic event acts as just the perfect catalyst for local city ordinance to shut down venues they've had long-standing feuds with, regardless of fire-safety codes.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 21 February 2003 16:22 (twenty-three years ago)

JAM Productions
Argh I hate those fuckers.
They were the ones who made everyone throw out their water before that Radiohead concert in Grant Park on the hottest day of the year.
Of course, fifteen minutes before the show they said everyone was entitled to one bottle of water, but by then it was too late and everyone had already gotten rid of theirs.

A friend of mine nearly died that day of dehydration.

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Friday, 21 February 2003 16:26 (twenty-three years ago)

the Stone Pony is saying that Great White used pyrotechnics there last week without permission.

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 21 February 2003 20:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, the owner of the Stone Pony's on CNN right now.....Great White may indeed have been wildly irresponsible (or someone on their management team, more likely) but it seems like a bit like kicking someone when they're down to bring this up now. I mean, their guitarist is still missing and this Stone Pony guy just compared it to 'a terroristic [sic] threat'. Nice.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 21 February 2003 20:27 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh man, they're interviewing the pyro stage dude from the Stone Pony right now -- and he's basically Jeff Spicoli plus twenty years. Eeek.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 21 February 2003 20:28 (twenty-three years ago)

God, the toll is up to 86 dead and 160 injured. The singer said that there wasn't any security lights so I'd imagine that most of the people couldn't find their way out with the smoke. Just awful!

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Friday, 21 February 2003 20:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Yes but I thought I noticed in a story earlier that owners of Stone Pony = owners of this club as well.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 21 February 2003 20:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Hmmmm...hadn't heard that. I'd imagine not, though, given the rather imperious "told'ja so" stance the Stone Pony Owner is taking.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 21 February 2003 20:40 (twenty-three years ago)

One of the worst moments in my brief foray into Orange County, CA show promoting was having to deal with the last minute addition of the World Inferno Friendship Society -- some 10+ circus clown punk rock wacky outfit on Gern Blandsten records -- to a show I was putting on.

Oh, and get this.. the headliners were the Charalambides.

I had nothing to do with the addition, but the guy who was the main booker wanted to do their label/booker a favor I guess. Noble, but it turned out to be rather awkward and bad. (Thankfully, that was the only bad moment of all the shows, and have amazing respect for the folks who kept that all-ages venue alive)

Anyway, the World Inferno Friendship Society did a variety of pyrotechnics inside a venue that was an ALL WOOD ART SHACK!

Smart, guys. Really smart. Thanks for stinking up the place, too. Hope you guys are now banned from playing shows ever again.

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 21 February 2003 23:42 (twenty-three years ago)

(I meant to say, I'm extremely grateful and pleasantly shocked that no one or thing was hurt or burned that night. Much respect to Azalia Snail, and Timonium, who opened for the Charalambides for putting up with all that shit. I think the Charalambides have an amusing tale about that show somewhere on their site)

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 21 February 2003 23:44 (twenty-three years ago)

The Metal Sludge board has a monster thread on the whole thing that often cuts pretty close to the bone. There's also a fairly brutal first hand account on the overall site.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 21 February 2003 23:52 (twenty-three years ago)

From the Metal Sludge forum:

"Remember this next time someone tells you 'there is no such thing as bad publicity'."

Ouch. No kidding. The owner of the Stone Pony apparently wants Great White impaled in the sun. I think a lot of people are feeling that way about this.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 00:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Personally I think it's equal stupidity and blame all around.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 22 February 2003 01:07 (twenty-three years ago)

So, is it confirmed at this point that one of the dead was the missing member of Great White?

In all cases.. :(

― donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 22 February 2003 01:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Why would a band use pyrotechnics in such a small club in the first place?

― Evan (Evan), Saturday, 22 February 2003 01:14 (twenty-three years ago)

I live 2 miles down the hill from where The Station was - unbelievable how so many people were killed by the carelessness of those in charge of the show. I've listened to the news on the radio all day long at work and here's something that I think hasn't been discussed on this thread yet;

There's a lot of finger pointing going on right now between the surviving band members and the owners of the club. What strikes me about this is that EVEN IF the management of the club didn't know about the pyro effects, they are still guilty of GROSS NEGLIGENCE. If you own a business, it is your duty to know what is taking place in your establishment - either by a stage manager, a soundman, or some other person who is involved with the set-up of the equipment. It is also your duty to have procedures in place in the event of an emergency, such as fire extinguishers, plans to show people the exits in the event of a fire, etc. What strikes me about this tragedy is that there appeared to be little to no response from the club staff during the fire. Yes, there are those heroic people who saved others, but I'm referring to the more basic needs of having staff open exits and use fire extinguishers during the initial moments of the fire.

I also listened to Mr. Santana, of the Stone Pony, as he professed his disgust at Great White and how he was taken completely by surprise by their pyro effects. Again, while this may be true, his lack of knowledge of events in his venue reeks of negligence. Of course, he's going to claim his ignorance - he's trying to cover his ass. Do you think he'd say that he knew they were going to use pyros without the permits? No way. Same thing with the owners of The Station.

I'm not taking sides here, only making an observation. I think the owners are at the least guilty of negligence and as far as the band, I don't know. They might be telling the truth because according to accounts from other clubs on this tour, they were denied permission to use pyros and didn't use them. Also, Great White played The Station 18 months ago, without pyro. Why would they suddenly decide to use them, especially after NOT doing so at other venues on this tour?

Beyond the legal ramifications, my heart goes out to all the victims and their families. This is a terrible tragedy, absolutely horrific.

I hope that from this disaster come measures that will prevent such a thing from happening again.

― Davlo (Davlo), Saturday, 22 February 2003 01:26 (twenty-three years ago)

This link may yet change, but the Smoking Gun crew got a hold of the Great White rider and notes that there's no mention of pyro. Ponder duly.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 22 February 2003 01:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Hmmmm. Unless Great White's management has a copy of the rider in their files that DOES specify pyro, and that the Smoking Gun got a hold of a doctored document, this doesn't bode well for Great White AT ALL.

― donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 22 February 2003 02:14 (twenty-three years ago)

No indeed, though as others have noted, it's also possible that there was a separate document specifically dealing with pyro. We'll have to see.

Meanwhile, in the 'uh, yeah, duh,' category, CNN's legal talking head had this to say, and while most of it is sound, the concluding comment is a bit 'the hell?':

And I'm not so cynical to think that liability is the only reason. I think that club owners genuinely don't want scores of people dying in their clubs.

Gee, ya think?

Meanwhile, over at the missing guitarist from Great White's guestbook, you've got people posting good wishes and remembrances...and then you've got a whole bunch of incredibly tasteless jokes from a slew of people at fuckedcompany.com as well. Smooth.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 22 February 2003 02:18 (twenty-three years ago)

for the ppl above who are saying "measures shd be taken" (in re RI and chicago and wherever next) => the ppl who must agitate and organise to force these measures to HAPPEN is like *you*

ie fans and punters and rock reviewers and posters to forums like these (who are obviously all smart and eloquent and care abt other ppl and whatever)

too much of rock/punk/rap subculture at ordinary times: "the govt sucks, it's like square guys in suits who don't get it!! FUCK THE SUITS, MAN!!"
too much of rock/punk/rap subculture at times like these: "where are the laws which we assumed kept us and our loved ones safe?"

this and chicago and anything like it are horrible and sad obv, even from far across the sea, not least bcz foax like great white were basically totally goofy and harmless and who the hell deserves this, least of all them?

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 22 February 2003 12:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Fair enough, Mark, but are even those so zealously caught up in the trappings of their respective subculture (rock/punk/rap/whathaveyou) that oblivious to common sense? I don't mean to nitpick, but you seem to be implying a collective dimness to these communities. Granted, the reliance on pyrotechnics in this day and age seems rather haplessly dated (and we are talking about an irrefutably silly and washed-up band), but accidents like this can be caused by a myriad of factors, not just pyrotechnics (although they certainly are the most likely culprit). In this case, I think just as much blame can be assigned to the club's negligence and diregard for safety protocol -- nothing should go on THEIR stage without THEIR knowledge -- as to the band and their handlers.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 12:49 (twenty-three years ago)

the govt sucks != there should be no laws, surely?

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Saturday, 22 February 2003 12:51 (twenty-three years ago)

At this stage, it does seem like Great White were repeat offenders in the deception of club owners -- if reports from other clubs on this particular tour are true -- but that doesn't excuse the clubs for not being in control of their spaces. It's really going to have to be a COLLECTIVE responsibility -- to wag fingers at the fans isn't enough.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 12:53 (twenty-three years ago)

alex i wasn't saying the victims are to blame, of course the club/band/local authorities have to shoulder the BLAME: i wz saying, if ppl want this situation to change in ways that work for them then the ppl directly involved, the consumers at risk, need to be prepared to speak up, to act to make these ways publicly known

when did you last see a review of some show at some dingy shack (or rave or whatever) saying "the band totally rocked, but btw this club is a horrific fire risk — go there at yr own peril, or let's get the bands that we like to boycott it till the owners take action"?

kerry — quite correctly — said that consumer groups shd regularly check these places out actually WHEN THEY'RE IN USE: all i'm pointing out is that consumers groups = orgs including fans themselves, and if everything is just left to a vague "measures must be taken", w/o pitching in yrself (obv i don't mean YOU ALEX MUST ORGANISE THIS, i mean the "you" most directly in the line of fire in these situations, ie the punters who go to such venues regularly anyway), then you WILL find that the measures taken will probbly leave yr area devoid of ANY funky little outlaw spaces etc etc (ie cf the v.good point you made up-thread, re city authorities simply shutting all clubs to save themselves the headache)

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 22 February 2003 13:33 (twenty-three years ago)

new thread re politix of this etc

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 22 February 2003 14:02 (twenty-three years ago)

That club isn't a particularly far walk from my home, and I fear that some of my friends might have gone to that show out of some twisted concept of irony, but I would say that it is *never* the wrong time to make fun of Great White.

Dave, you live far (by RI standards) from The Station; I rent movies at the Blockbuster down the street from it ALL THE TIME.

Scary shit. Death toll is at 96, making it worse than Waco in terms of deaths.

I don't think I knew anyone, but given how small a state this is, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that I know friends of friends aunt's cousins sisters and shit.

― ian johnson, Saturday, 22 February 2003 21:43 (twenty-three years ago)

I think this terrible thing rather puts into perspective the interview w/Faust in the new Wire: "As far as we know we were the first people to use fireworks and incendiary devices in the Royal Festival Hall, and it was only after very long conversations where we didn't even mention everything that we had planned. We had to admit some of what we do in order to get them to switch the smoke detectors off, but even we don't know what's going to happen once we're onstage."

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Saturday, 22 February 2003 23:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Mark, those are all good points. I'm not picking a fight with you....well, not this time anyway.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 22 February 2003 23:03 (twenty-three years ago)

96 dead. And how many were there? I thought I heard 300, but that might be wrong. Still...imagine if that's the case. 1 in 3 didn't survive the concert. Christ.

― Girolamo Savonarola, Sunday, 23 February 2003 11:13 (twenty-three years ago)

two months pass...

Epilogue:

From News of the Weird

In the midst of the national debate over fire codes in the wake of the February Warwick, R.I., nightclub disaster, fire safety consultant Philip R. Sherman told a Providence Journal reporter that toughening the codes was not an automatic cure because the codes will still be ignored due to variations in people's intelligence: "Clearly we have to account for dumb things (when we write the codes). Is wrapping the room in foam plastic the level of dumbness we want to account for? Or will somebody do something (even) dumber?" [Providence Journal, 3-14-03]

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:11 (twenty-three years ago)

two years pass...

The ex-manager of a US heavy metal band is expected to plead guilty to some charges brought over a fire that killed 100 people in a US nightclub.
Dan Biechele was to be tried in May on 200 counts of involuntary manslaughter related to the blaze at the Station nightclub in Rhode Island in 2003.
The fire started during a show by Great White, Mr Biechele's band, when fireworks ignited soundproofing foam.
Two brothers who were co-owners of the West Warwick club also face charges.
According to Judge Francis Darigan at Providence Superior Court, Rhode Island, Mr Biechele will plead guilty to "certain counts" against him.
Great White guitarist Ty Longley was among those killed in the fire, which began just seconds into the concert.

The band was popular during the 1980s, with hits including Rock Me and Once Bitten, Twice Shy.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 19:16 (twenty years ago)

Judge: Band manager to plead guilty in nightclub fire
By Eric Tucker, Associated Press Writer | January 31, 2006
PROVIDENCE, R.I. --The former manager of the heavy metal rock group Great White has agreed to plead guilty to 100 counts of involuntary manslaughter stemming from the deadly 2003 nightclub fire, a judge said Tuesday.
Superior Court Judge Francis Darigan said Daniel Biechele will serve no more than 10 years in state prison under a deal with prosecutors that may have spared him a life sentence. He is scheduled to enter the plea next Tuesday.
Biechele was originally charged with 200 counts of involuntary manslaughter for setting the blaze that began when he ignited pyrotechnics during a Great White performance at The Station nightclub in West Warwick.
Sparks from the pyrotechnics ignited highly flammable foam lining the club's walls and ceiling, creating a fast-moving blaze that also injured more than 200 people in the fourth-deadliest nightclub fire in the country's history.
Each manslaughter charge carries a maximum of 30 years in prison.
Darigan did not say whether Biechele will cooperate with prosecutors in the case against club owners Jeffrey and Michael Derderian, who are also each charged with 200 counts of involuntary manslaughter for allegedly installing the flammable foam in violation of the state fire code.
Tom Briody, a lawyer for Biechele, declined to comment.
Biechele has said through his lawyer that he had permission to light the pyrotechnics during the Feb. 20, 2003, concert, but the Derderians have disputed that claim.
Jeff Pine, the attorney for Jeffrey Derderian, declined to comment.
Some victims' relatives reacted angrily to the news.
"My daughter's life is worth more than a plea bargain," said Diane Mattera, who lost her 29-year-old daughter, Tammy, in the fire.
"For the 100 victims, and for all the ones that are burnt and scarred and everything else, they deserve much more than this -- not a plea bargain," she said. "This is absolutely wrong."
Rosanna Fontaine, whose 22-year-old son Mark was killed in the fire, was among the relatives notified last week in a letter from the Attorney General's office that Tuesday's court date would be Biechele's final pretrial conference. She was not told of a possible plea deal.
"It's hard today," she said. "I don't think we hold out much hope that anyone really is going to be held accountable."
The plea agreement is likely to change the landscape of the criminal case against the Derderians, said David Frank, a former prosecutor and current reporter for Rhode Island Lawyers' Weekly and Massachusetts Lawyers' Weekly. It could make it easier for them to point blame at Biechele if he admits responsibility.
"His lawyer isn't there to sort of present his side of the story or present his spin," Frank said. "So it really allows the Derderians to put whatever blame or whatever responsibility they think is appropriate on this manager."
The upside for prosecutors is that it would remove the uncertainty of a jury trial, he said.
That's not good enough for Mattera.
"Where in God's name would he ever be acquitted on this Earth?" she said. "That would never happen."
The three defendants were charged with two counts of involuntary manslaughter for each of the 100 people killed. One count per death alleged criminal negligence, the other accused the defendants of committing underlying misdemeanor offenses that led to the deaths.

Under Biechele's deal, he would plead guilty to the counts related to misdemeanor offenses.

― Edward III (edward iii), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:35 (twenty years ago)

three months pass...

Ex-manager gets 4 years.

Is that long enough?

― hyde park records (colonel), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:18 (twenty years ago)

Not for 100 murders.

― Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:24 (twenty years ago)

Doesn't 'murder' imply intent?

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:30 (twenty years ago)

Yes. But "intent" isn't limited to cold-blooded calculation. I'm fairly certain that if you drive 100 miles an hour in a school zone and kill a kid with your car, you "intended" to kill the kid in the eyes of the law. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's how it works. I'd argue that installing the kind of foam he did amounts to the same kind of negligence.

― Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:33 (twenty years ago)

I should have added "band manager".

― hyde park records (colonel), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:35 (twenty years ago)

Yeesh. That's not the way it works. You could look it up.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:36 (twenty years ago)

tracer i think you're confusing the tour manager (the once sentenced today) with the nightclub manager. two different guys.

xpost

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:36 (twenty years ago)

How about:

Jack White / manager / club owners - 10 years
Other band members - 5 years

― hyde park records (colonel), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:39 (twenty years ago)

Any site reporting all this yet?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 20:40 (twenty years ago)

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