Morrissey really seriously ill?

Thing is, yeah, he's a lousy comedian.

the lens of his own incredible narcissism and self-obsession.

I loved the Smiths before I gave solo Morrissey a chance and found "Bengali in Platforms" on the first solo album I bought. I still like a lot of the Smiths' music but I sometimes have trouble seeing the lyrics the same way that I used to: much of the 'introspection' and the cynical worldview can seem more like "narcissism and self-obsession", as you put it, exactly the same sort of narcissism and self-obsession that is at the root of his xenophobic, essentially racist attitudes. (I mean, it could also partly be that I'm not 18 anymore.)

"...are at the root..."

Also, Knightsbridge has been populated by rich foreigners for, what, 50 years now?

Yes, but he hasn't been in Knightsbridge for 50 years. I think he is dumb enough to be comparing it to 1950s Manchester. Like most racists, I doubt he has spent any time close enough to "kids from Asian, African and Caribbean backgrounds" to gauge anything about them, including the variety of accents they might have.

Like most racists, I doubt

ignore the dangling modifier here by the way lol

I agree w m@tt's POV for the most part. p clear that as an American I'm missing a lot of UK nuances here.

didn't know the Union Jack was considered a racist symbol for example

http://www.feelnumb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/def_leppard_union_jack_9522.jpg

http://www.feelnumb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/gallery_pic7264.jpg

http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=4933395

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000wrIrlCcB9Oc/s/600/480/SFE-911001-001.jpg

http://assets.vice.com/content-images/contentimage/no-slug/d61d10fe62bc87884c244082e0e2e45c.jpg

i mean there's a lot more that a google search turns up, its just either on stormfront or it genuinely makes me want to vomit

like, i didn't know that the confederate flag was considered racist when i was a kid watching dukes of hazzard but...

http://i.imgur.com/fFQY8uy.png

http://i.imgur.com/fSZcudM.png

http://i.imgur.com/5jK8deV.png

https://mikescollection.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/mrpphotos211794-gl393094_geri-halliwell_union_jack_dress.jpg

like, i didn't know that the confederate flag was considered racist when i was a kid watching dukes of hazzard but...

not analogous

unless the Union Jack has explicitly been the symbol of a government that fought a war over the right to maintain a racial group as slaves. the Confederate Flag literally has no other meaning. It is the symbol of that gov't.

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1132959.ece/alternates/s615/Great%20Britain%27s%20Jessica%20Ennis%20holding%20the%20Union%20Jack%20Flag%20after%20the%20heptathlon%20800%20metres%20during%20Day%20Four%20of%20the%20IAAF%20World%20Athletics%20Championships

feel free to enlighten me on the history of the Union Jack tho

lots of flag posts itt

i did not know it was a symbol etc etc when i was watching a car draped in it on dukes of hazzard, you had no idea union jack had been appropriated by racist skinheads in 70s and 80s uk, potato potahto lets call the whole thing off

first hit when googling racist appropriation of union jack AND national front appropriation of union jack: http://www.morrissey-solo.com/threads/28727-Morrissey-s-use-of-the-Union-Jack-WAS-insensitive-and-racist

the statement "the Union Jack is considered a racist symbol" is somewhat reductive but it has a long history of prominent display by British far right groups, as per the photos above. my (limited and poss incorrect) impression of American white supremacist or w/e groups is that they don't use the American flag in quite the same way

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/08/the-tragic-decline-of-the-union-jack/261071/

(several xposts)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hK6lUbtUxmAC&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=national+front+appropriation+of+union+jack&source=bl&ots=KBsk2ppS0q&sig=SntetASVcpkf5hqthwyiUD-ViAg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZPSqU4H8LKew7Aa9-oHIDQ&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=national%20front%20appropriation%20of%20union%20jack&f=false
^^^ don't know if this link works but it links to a book that points out that the same afternoon morrissey was waving union jack at madstock in finsbury park, the national front had organised a 'british troops out of ireland' march in nearby islington

also that he was literally waving a flag about whilst opening for a band that famously had a notable far-right/skinhead following, at a time when he was fetishising skinhead aesthetics in his songs/record sleeves etc, I don't think it's really the same as the Noel G or Geri Halliwell examples xp

you had no idea union jack had been appropriated by racist skinheads in 70s and 80s uk

this all seems to go back to the idea posited upthread somewhere that all nationalism is at heart racist, which I can't really argue with. Some expressions of nationalism are more racist than others, I suppose.

xp

American white supremacist or w/e groups is that they don't use the American flag in quite the same way

this impression is incorrect

http://www.rulen.com/kkk/kkkflag3.jpg

not nationalism, the NATIONAL FRONT, which is an explicitly racist group

thread delivers

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qfdHUpexL.jpg

http://www.amazon.co.uk/There-Aint-Black-Union-Jack/dp/0415289815

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qfdHUpexL.jpg

the paul gilroy book might be worth reading, here

what this thread has taught me is that we need a poll to determine which flag is the most racist

lots of flag posts itt

― Knob Dicks (wins), Wednesday, June 25, 2014 12:09 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark

Very good

Actually thats not the book I meant - just a sec

I was talking to a queer friend about some of this stuff once. He pointed out that, in his view, songs like "Sweet and Tender Hooligan" and "National Front Disco" are basically really about rough trade, which I'd probably been naive to really miss. I'd been inclined towards a more charitable interpretation of "NF Disco" but this actually makes it seem more loathsome.

the footage of Finsbury Park was a surprise when i finally saw it. type in the phrase "morrissey draped in union jack finsbury park" into Google and see how many people have parroted that down the years. he doesn't appear to be draped in it at all from the look of the footage. he didn't wave it about during National Front Disco either which often gets said, he picks it up off the floor once during the show, twirls it around in the same manner one might do with a feather boa or whatever then chucks it away again.
(4.50 onwards on here for the full 'horror')

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-0EQsbhTb0

i wonder how many people have ever actually seen this. it never came out commercially so i'm assuming.. not many.

GIS for "racist flag" is fairly conclusive

not nationalism, the NATIONAL FRONT, which is an explicitly racist group

yeah I get that, I know what the National Front is. But on a more general level nationalism - by itself, this idea that there is a PURE conception of the nation that deserves to be prized above others - is essentially racist, it always requires some idea of ethnic homogeneity, it's pride based on demonization of an externalized "other".

xp

clearly I need to read up on NF policy on the Irish occupation! interesting.

contextually, racism/nationalism and the national front were not misty-eyed 70s/80s nostalgia in 1992 - a year later, the BNP won a council seat in the isle of dogs. i was studying in mile end at the time and the sense of tension there was palpable. that moz would coyly play with this stuff seemed unforgivable to me at the time.

ward - i'm not saying a desire to preserve or be a booster of stuff is bad, i just think he tends to see the decline of it as part of a "declining England" narrative or loss of Englishness that's has been a theme of his and i think at times has caused him to be racist (like "life is hard enough when you belong here" or "we are the last truly english people you will ever know" etc)

― sinister porpoise (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, June 25, 2014 1:59 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol ums, i think i was just being defensive because i like a lot of the same old musty shit as morrissey - and of course a lot of this stuff (like british sitcoms from the 1970s) is really horribly racist, tho' i don't think that's the sole reason that morrissey digs 'em.

the last time i saw morrissey live - one of his Meltdown performances on the South Bank - I was struck by the surprisingly heavy audience presence in the bar beforehand of serious rocker and skinhead types wearing oh-so-cryptic 'european tour' 1938-45 t-shirts etc. maybe having the Cockney Rejects on the same bill contributed to that, but it was far from being a regulation indie crowd.

and of course a lot of this stuff (like british sitcoms from the 1970s) is really horribly racist,

yeah I assumed bringing up Nico was deliberate in this regard

didn't know the Union Jack was considered a racist symbol for example

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, June 25, 2014 3:50 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Depends on the context in which its used.

If someone throws the Union Jack on stage and you pick it up?

http://static-1.nexusmods.com/15/mods/110/images/18911-1-1339907682.jpg

Every racist has good luck.

Wait, UN Goodwill Ambassador Geri Halliwell is a racist!? What is the UK equivalent of a crying eagle gif?