why did rock critics hate Queen so much in the 1970s/80s?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6030/5980195685_509916c25f_o.png

LOL.

ok responding to a bunch of stuff:

Marsh otm in original post imo. Queen is def fascist and it creeps me out, even when its of the campy gay variety.
― Οὖτις, Friday, May 16, 2014 9:41 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I cannot think of a reasonable definition of "fascist" that would include Queen. I could imagine someone arguing that they flirted with fascist aesthetics, or something. I happen to think they didn't—indeed, that was stock-in-trade of 3rd-rate punk bands at the time.

a larger context here is the way that critics are almost always, implicitly or explicitly, making moral judgements alongside aesthetic ones. that is, a negative review—especially one as vituperative as Marsh's above—is seldom just a diagnosis of music that doesn't quite work. whether the tone is one of outrage or disappointment, there's a sense that the musicians have failed in some primary responsibility to an audience (or to the critic's ego construed as a figure for the audience). i mean part of this speaks to how important music is for a lot of people in our culture, though it also derives from a milieu (rock criticism and extreme fan-dom) where a narcissism of small differences reigns supreme. and thus distinctions (like, I dunno, Queen vs. New York Dolls) that would seem without a difference from a different cultural position suddenly become hugely portentous.

we're probably all guilty of this—personally, I wish I could wash this aspect of my personality out of my brain—but there are still occasions, especially when I have the benefit of cultural or temporal distance, when I'm like, "seriously guys?" this is one of those occasions.

queen rox and u r all gay
― The Reverend, Friday, May 16, 2014 10:58 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this thread was predicated on the assumption that Queen are awesome and that most people probably like them! SMH

the early 80s US rock audience probably was discomfited by Freddie. Like "Another one…" did not work on rock radio, and heaven knows "Hot space" would be regarded by a 38 special fan as disco those fags and blacks listen to. mainstream "rock" fans were more or less openly racist and loudly homophobic in the early 80s.

but we're not talking about fans (Queen had tons of those), but critics. critics who were quite comfortable with soul and disco—at least that applies to Dave Marsh, a guy with catholic and unexpected and rich tastes even if he often seems to betray them in favor of explicitly political roots-rock garbage. or what g simmel said (I really hope you're named after georg simmel btw).

if this all broke down into simple binaries, then the thread question wouldn't be very interesting, after all….

can someone speak more to the putatively "fascist" aspects of queen and why they were perceived that way, especially, in the 1970s? there's been some really good stuff on this thread so far (THANKS!) about it but I'd still like to hear more.

maybe it's simply that my experience listening to Queen has been mostly a private one of sitting around and listening to records, rather than doing so in their commercial prime and having to encounter their antics (?) on TV and in the newspapers etc. maybe their ubiquity and bombast would have scared me off, too, once upon a time.

xps Ha, this is the first version of "Bohemian Rhapsody" I heard. My dad told me it used to be a rock song when he was a kid and I couldn't envision it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmEzBuU5N_Y

Marcello takes them seriously.

xp It was one of the impetuses for this thread: Less famous covers that you knew before the more famous originals

Also note that it features what appears to be the silhouette of a black woman on the cover when it was sung by a white lady. A total Bobby Caldwell/early Madonna case.

Third note about The Braids' cover of "Bohemian Rhapsody": It was totally piggybacking on the success of the Fugees' stylistically similar cover of "Killing Me Softly" which had been all over the radio that year.

Marcello takes them seriously.

― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, May 17, 2014 4:01 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

unfortunately, i can't take marcello's writing seriously. or rather, when reading him i get the distinctly unpleasant feeling that i'm witnessing a mind unravel.

To me, ascribing the differences between the New York Dolls and Queen to the narcissism of small differences--whether you're talking about the music, Dave Marsh's reaction to the music, or just about anything except their historical proximity--would be like saying the same of the differences between Jean-Luc Godard and Claude Lelouch, who were both successful French film directors in the mid-'60s.

To someone else, maybe they are more or less interchangeable.

I prefer "unfurl"

xpost

the difference between Queen and the New York Dolls is that Queen invaded Poland

while the Dolls couldn't even invade Christgau's living room.

!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-SMOsXCc0c

Xp But later David Johanson invaded both multiplexes and our hearts with his memorable role in Freejack.

Just heard "'39" for the first time. Lovely!

yeah that's a great song

not the dolls, but queen was def. taking notes while watching mott the hoople (supposedly the only act they ever opened for?).

no greater authority than joe elliott:

Rumor has it Freddy Mercury actually wrote "Bohemian Rhapsody" having watched Mott. Mott the Hoople were the only band Queen ever supported, and on that tour Mott were doing "Marionette" every night. Fred would stand and watch it. And although the two songs don't sound remotely like each other, you can see a parallel between them.

I always heard "Bohemian Rhapsody" as a nod to the Who's "A Quick One, While He's Away."

And although the two songs don't sound remotely like each other, you can see a parallel between them.

eh?

very dramatic, constructed out of lots of different tricky parts, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU7rqB9E_0M

LOVE that song.

Marionette / Bo rhap?

Naaaah.

can someone speak more to the putatively "fascist" aspects of queen and why they were perceived that way, especially, in the 1970s?

I think Marsh makes himself clear as to what he means, that he feels their drama is heavy-handed, audience is being spoon-fed, etc. You say in one of your first posts that other critics made the same charge, but who were they?

"We Are the Champions" - Queen's Nordic Supremacy-suspect current hit single

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1299&dat=19771212&id=_wBOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=94sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2650,5489244

he feels their drama is heavy-handed, audience is being spoon-fed

I mean, this doesn't quite seem to justify 'truly fascist' and 'creeps and their polluting ideas', does it?

See also: Bangs on ELP, Christgau on Journey, every Golden Age critic on Rush, etc

Certainly, The Game is less obnoxious than Queen's last few outings, simply because it's harder to get annoyed with a group that's plugging away at bad rockabilly than with one blasting out crypto-Nazi marching tunes.

Most of the songs on News of the World either challenge Queen's artistic enemies or endeavor to establish a vision of the new order. "We Are the Champions" ends with the line, "No time for losers, 'cause we are the champions—of the world." It's an appropriate comment for a side that also includes "We Will Rock You," which has the atmosphere of a political rally in a Leni Riefenstahl movie and is at once a rock anthem and a commandment.

Speaking of the NY Dolls, does anyone remember when David Johansen went on the Tonight Show as Buster Poindexter and explained to Johnny Carson that he quit singing rock music because his shows were becoming like Nazi rallies? I swear this really happened.

I found it. About 40 seconds in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EalIXbQsLCA

tons of reviews of Queen albums here, incl. dave marsh's "fascist" comment in the rs review of 'jazz.'

http://www.queenarchives.com/index.php?title=Queen_Music_Reviews

haha, from david fricke's review of live killers: "There are also two versions of their Aryan command, 'We Will Rock You.'"

most of this stuff just seems like a bunch of uptight guys justifying their hatred of a band with whatever cultural/political boogeyman seemed most damning at the time

probably because it remains such a popular practice to this day

otm. today they'd undoubtedly be racist/sexist. oh wait they were sexist then too.

News of the World [Elektra, 1977]
In which the group that last January brought us a $7.98 LP to boycott devotes one side to the wantonness of woman and the other to the futile rebelliousness of the doomed-to-life losers (those saps!) (you saps!) who buy and listen. C

70's crit is chock full of homophobia. almost the default setting.

queen has always had a large female following. or at least from a night at the opera on. they appeal to drama queens. like me. and my sister.

rock critics have always sneered at stuff popular with teens. i think that's it more than anything.

freddie was soooooooooo gay! way campier than bowie. way more proud of his strutting and preening too. he owned it. and teen boys and girls thought he was the coolest! i always thought that was awesome.

Longshot, but it's also possible Christgau, Marsh, Marcus, and the rest despised Queen's music.

:D scott, you are such a happy writer

xp

what's Tarfumes gonna do with this quote:

"When we lost Freddie, we not only lost a great personality, a man with a great sense of humour, a true showman, but we lost probably the best. The best virtuoso rock 'n' roll singer of all time. He could sing anything in any style. He could change his style from line to line and, God, that's an art. And he was brilliant at it."
Roger Daltrey

christgau and marsh hate or are indifferent to about 80% of the things i love. that's okay though. i will always read xgau even though we are polar opposites. i probably have more in common with greil. he likes a lot of stuff that i like. xgau has always hated metal pretty much.

man its impossible to overstate how huge bohemian rapz was after wayne's world came out. it seemed to really lead to a big queen resurgence—i remember they reissued one of the volumes of their greatest hits and tacked on BR and called it "classic queen"?

was b-raps a huge hit in the day, too? or some weird deep cut?

yeah xgau has little use for anything too european in general (he's admitted as much) which limits appreciation of metal, queen, abba, daft punk, etc

honest q: why do people give much of a shit abt him then? he sounds lame.

lol it was a massive #1 in the UK december 1975. My folks bought me a night at the opera that xmas. I wasnt even 3 yet. I loved that song apparently.
xp

I remember gushing to Chris Karolidis in grade 10 history what a big deal it was that it made #1 in both the U.K. and the States. I thought my memory was faulty when I checked--it only made it to #9 in the States--but it was #1 in Canada, so that must have been what I meant.