Deafheaven

ive noticed a lot of muso type dudes/chicks cant get into celtic frost or hellhammer! its hard for them to embrace that type of crudeness, the basicness (or even sloppiness) of the actual playing. to me that kind of stuff puts it on a higher level of kultitude

― 1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 15 March 2014 15:37 (5 hours ago) Permalink

OTM, same type of people seem to hate Darkthrone's more lo-fi albums for similar reasons

No, I agree that the playing didn't sound sloppy or imprecise. (I never made that criticism btw.)

xpost

xp

I know a lot of people who love the last 4 or 5 Enslaved albums but hate the stuff before it. A lot definitely do not like lo-fi production OR simple stuff. Im fed up of hearing so many people say over the years "i dont want to hear stuff a 12 year old could play"

Rocky knows who I am talking about if he sees this thread

Im fed up of hearing so many people say over the years "i dont want to hear stuff a 12 year old could play"

Because you think the compositions are (deceptively) more sophisticated than that or because you don't think that's a valid criterion?

I mean, when ums said of well-known professional musicians that they "can't play", I didn't think he literally meant that they lacked the basic technical ability to clap a beat or tune their instruments. That usually means that they're not playing anything very interesting or challenging, right?

If that's the case it's sort of like criticizing the early Beatles albums because they're not Yes.

the latter(i wasnt talking about M@tt btw)

i think the compositions are more sophisticated than that AND i dont think its a valid criterion

It's a weird criticism tbh, especially because there are some damn good 12-year-olds out there. My Advanced Harmony/Analysis student from last year would probably beat Brian Eno in a technical contest.

for me, single criterion = "is this interesting" - I don't care if it's technically adept - I'm a Fall fan for instance - I am however put off by an awful lot of early BM as I haven't worked out why it's distinctive or interesting - perhaps I need to hear it more

Maybe we should have an early black metal listening club. And I when I say club I mean a heavy piece of oak studded with nails.

imago, do you listen to other forms of metal from the era preceding or concurrent with early BM? It's at the very least stylistically remarkable if you realize that there wasn't much like it at the time (Venom and Motorhead and some of the more extreme thrash bands were as close as you could get).

unfortunately 'at the time' doesn't wash with a neophyte like me - while certain structures external to the audio itself hold some weight, chronology is pretty much the first thing I deconstruct. pitting a lot of this early BM against, say, deathspell omega is like putting an angry rat in a cage with an interdimensional three-headed wolf

fully aware that this heresy will get me FPs but then what is BM if not a celebration of heresy

Well, I would substitute "ignore" for "deconstruct." But I love Venom and Deathspell Omega. It's all a big, black, beautiful rainbow of different flavors.

ive noticed a lot of muso type dudes/chicks cant get into celtic frost or hellhammer! its hard for them to embrace that type of crudeness, the basicness (or even sloppiness) of the actual playing. to me that kind of stuff puts it on a higher level of kultitude

― 1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Saturday, 15 March 2014 15:37 (5 hours ago) Permalink

OTM, same type of people seem to hate Darkthrone's more lo-fi albums for similar reasons

― Quinoa Phoenix (latebloomer), Saturday, March 15, 2014 4:20 PM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

1) I'm not demanding anyone be Discipline era King Crimson in terms of chops, I like plenty of sloppy bands...I dunno the early CF stuff feels kind of sloppy in a not-distinctive way that was later improved on later records. Tom G Warrior has said the same thing wrt the sloppiness and crappy playing in an interview I read

2) Darkthrone's Transylvanian Hunger is literally the only black metal album that has ever done much for me...so I don't know what that means

early CF just sounds like a band that isn't quite dialed in w/what they are trying to do IMO

but i realize with all this stuff every flaw that i could possibly perceive just increases its kvltness and not being trv myself, my criticisms only confirm its value

Maybe we should have an early black metal listening club. And I when I say club I mean a heavy piece of oak studded with nails.

i chuckled!

at least i did once i'd run away to a safe distance

chronology is pretty much the first thing I deconstruct

man I just do not any more understand the appeal of listening to music without reference to its historical context - it's like you're choosing to reduce the music to just its sound when it has many more, to borrow your own term, dimensions, or like no longer reading because now we have TV

especially in a genre like metal where history is so much of the fun

ask the masseur about his history. know the context for each rub.

Oddly, I have been known to be "muso" in other contexts, but with bands like CF/Hellhammer/Darkthrone, not only does simplicity not bother me, it's part of what I love about the music. That said, I think it's overstarted a bit in regards to those bands. Let's not kid ourselves: it's no easier to pull off the average Celtic Frost song on drums/guitar/vocals than, say, the average Pink Floyd song.

Also, I definitely *do* understand not diving into a band's history when I listen to them -- it's how I (and most people?) started out loving music, and only after realizing I'm really into the music do I delve into the backstory, at least beyond the discography/cursory bio-data level. In fact, I have snuffed out a couple of music phases by diving in too far too soon -- these days, you almost have to fight accessing the Complete Story on any given band/genre.

yes but louis always refuses to do this. It almost always has to fit this art school aesthetic he has and he doesnt like caveman origins really

I don't care what reservations anybody has about old Celtic Frost, these should all melt away once the opening riff to "Procreation of the Wicked" starts. Morbid Tales is stone cold classic IMO, perhaps not the heights of To Mega Therion, but the material seriously crushed live when I saw CF in 2008.

knowing where it comes from is going to increase your understanding of what the music is, imo

I really like Transilvanian Hunger btw.

And <3 Mercyful Fate forever.

i like mercyful fate a lot but they are very fancy and melodic i like that part of it

do people like darkthrone better than burzum, generally? i like transilvanian hunger a lot but beyond that burzum is the only one of the early norwegian bands that i really love. i find this problematic.

problematic like diarhhea?

t'ship, perhaps this will hit a similar spot for you

i like mercyful fate a lot but they are very fancy and melodic i like that part of it

Well, yeah, I mentioned them as an example of old quasi-proto-bm, not as an example of non-technical metal.

do people like darkthrone better than burzum, generally?

Hard to say? But from what I notice, Burzum's style seems to be the one that influences modern-day atmospheric black metal the most (such as the band of this thread). Both Darkthrone and Burzum are viewed as huge influencers in the genre, and along with Emperor, imo form cornerstones of what people think of when they think of "black metal". I think Darkthrone are often used as a symbol of "true", uncompromising art -- "we make whatever music we want, so fuck off" -- while Burzum is often used as the symbol of everything that's "evil" about it (ie, "we kill people and burn down churches"). The latter is more goth-y and "emo" to me, and though I actually really like the first several Burzum records, I play them a lot less than Darkthrone.

Darkthrone is aggression and dirtiness, as opposed to depression and a gloomy kind of prettiness that I associate with Burzum. I also associate Darkthrone with a kind of metal meat-and-potato-ness, while Burzum and Emperor (though not sounding that similar) are more ornate, more concept-oriented.

knowing where it comes from is going to increase your understanding of what the music is, imo

― 1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, March 18, 2014 5:45 PM (2 hours ago)

this is especially true of BM imo, its kind of baffling to think about doing this "approach in a vaccuum" style

that method also leads to a lot of the "all this stuff sounds the same" garbage that has cursed metal forever

I usually like approaching metal without knowing where it comes from or what it's about or what the lyrics are, like just enjoying as pure form

~~~impure~~~ form

I usually like approaching metal without knowing where it comes from or what it's about or what the lyrics are, like just enjoying as pure form

I mean whatever works for you but in the case of this genre it's leaving out stuff that's important to 1) the people who make the music and 2) the community that's supported it for years. though you can also put aside questions of "do I wanna support these nazis" if you attempt an ahistorical approach

idk I used to think the idea of just listening to the music with no reference to its context was a cool aesthetic and now I lol at the me who thought that

context def works for albums like Possessed's Seven Churches, the aforementioned CF albums, etc....

xp

it's more what dominique said, (im)pure form blank slate at first, delve into background once I'm into it

I think not appreciating the context is why I had such a hard time appreciating the first wave of Black Metal at first, back in my early 20s

knowing where it comes from is going to increase your understanding of what the music is, imo
― 1 P.3. Eternal (roxymuzak), Tuesday, March 18, 2014 5:45 PM (2 hours ago)

this is especially true of BM imo, its kind of baffling to think about doing this "approach in a vaccuum" style

― Corpsepaint Counterpaint (jjjusten), Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:39 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i literally listen to black metal in one of those soundproof isolation chambers where you float in water

Ha that sounds dope IMO

But when you emerge instead of transforming into an ape man like on Altered States you come out looking like a wood goblin or something

That's what happened to Mortiis

Also the crucifix hallucination scene is threaded UPSIDE DOWN.

listened to Celtic Frost off the back of this thread. Fair enough not feeling it, but "not tight"/ "can't play" doesn't seem to be the case at all, Morbid Tales sounds very proficient to my ears. I admit to not being a trained musician though.

Should I go see them live y/n

Yes. I don't like the record, but -unfortunate Hitler youth haircut and penchant for straight arm salutes aside - they're quite a good live band. High volume helps them immensely.

looks like a pretty wild show, i'd say go for it
http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/diamondbackonline.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/8/ee/8ee1da14-a625-11e2-99b5-0019bb30f31a/516c8ff318dad.image.jpg