Radiohead - Kid A / Amnesiac Poll

take the guitar out of the jimi hendrix experience

lol xp

It's not really surprising that taking away the thing that makes the songs interesting makes them less interesting.

― sent as gassed to onto rt dominance (DJP), Tuesday, February 18, 2014 9:43 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Absolutely, and this is the ultimate flaw of the record for me. The material just isn't good enough, as far as I'm concerned. If 'Morning Mr Magpie' had been attempted for In Rainbows, it would have been shown up for what it is: a mere scrap of a song with not a lot going for it.

you can say the exact same thing about "Hunting Bears" or "Like Spinning Plates", though; the arrangement is actually important to convey the song's intended effect

dude you can't separate different elements of such an integrated composition so cavalierly. morning mr magpie wouldn't have been WRITTEN for in rainbows, or at least sounded anything like that, because believe it or not it was the result of a writing process that synthesised its various elements to fit a single vision, each of which depended on the rest for support. you're being a bit ridiculous tbh

take the guitar out of the jimi hendrix experience

― Know Scot! Free Getaway: Glen, Handa Island, Rua Reidh (imago), Tuesday, February 18, 2014 9:44 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Indeed, strip the guitar away from 'The Wind Cries Mary', and leave the bass and drums and the song would still shine through, because it's that strong. You'd still be able to hear just how well-written that song actually is, even without the guitar.

dude you can't separate different elements of such an integrated composition so cavalierly. morning mr magpie wouldn't have been WRITTEN for in rainbows, or at least sounded anything like that, because believe it or not it was the result of a writing process that synthesised its various elements to fit a single vision, each of which depended on the rest for support. you're being a bit ridiculous tbh

― Know Scot! Free Getaway: Glen, Handa Island, Rua Reidh (imago), Tuesday, February 18, 2014 9:51 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

'Morning Mr Magpie' was written around the time of Hail To The Thief.

well, it wasn't on that album was it? clearly they weren't happy with it until its TKOL iteration - when it finally fit the vision. perhaps I should have said that it wouldn't have been RECORDED for IR because they weren't quite in the right place to make it work then (and too right, they were more concerned with making drippy indie ballads lol)

you can say the exact same thing about "Hunting Bears" or "Like Spinning Plates", though; the arrangement is actually important to convey the song's intended effect

― sent as gassed to onto rt dominance (DJP), Tuesday, February 18, 2014 9:49 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Even though 'Like Spinning Plates' was the product of its arrangement, it still stands up incredibly well when removed from the shackles of its arrangement, as the solo piano version on I Might Be Wrong clearly displays; there is a song there, and a very good one.

'shackles of its arrangement' is some insane form vs content madness that I cannot endorse, sorry. you're right that the live version of LSP is amazing but as far as I'm concerned it's a completely different song

oh and fyi Punchup At A Wedding is one of Radiohead's best songs ever. my takeaway from this is that we look for very different things in our Radiohead

When it comes to the crunch: a turd is a turd, no matter how wonderfully it's polished.

what is the 'song' that is subsequently 'polished' by its 'arrangement'? is not the 'song' the sum total of its recording, including arrangement?

c'mon, what is the original song - is it the lead instrument melody + the lyrics? the bassline? enlighten me

To my understanding, the song itself is the composition--the chords, melody (bass and treble) and lyrics that provide the backbone of the recording. The arrangement is the dressing--the strings or the synthesizer or the sound effects that flesh out the recording of the song. In the case of "Like Spinning Plates," the solo piano version represents the basest form of the song, which I imagine was the "original" version that Yorke showed to the band in the recording sessions.

nah but LSP was 'discovered' by reversing an I Will demo so like

accept that 'arrangement' can be a euphemistic term for any melodic gussying-up, but it certainly doesn't cover the rhythm section. 'composition' is really the whole thing imo

Voodoo chili is mostly OTM: generally the core of a song is a melody (or melodies) fitted to a chord progression (or series of chord progressions). This could be a melody played on a 'lead instrument' (if it's an instrumental), or it could a vocal melody (or top-line, fitted with a lyric or not, in the case of Pink Floyd's 'The Great Gig In The Sky'). Then you take the core of the song and work out an arrangement.

Yes, while the arrangement can contain hooks in themselves which embellish the core of the song: rhythmic hooks, bass hooks etc. In the case of 'Morning Mr Magpie', it's that clipped guitar riff that runs throughout the song. But if you ain't got a great core there, you have the equivalent of a well-wrapped gift containing nothing but air.

nah but LSP was 'discovered' by reversing an I Will demo so like

accept that 'arrangement' can be a euphemistic term for any melodic gussying-up, but it certainly doesn't cover the rhythm section. 'composition' is really the whole thing imo

― Know Scot! Free Getaway: Glen, Handa Island, Rua Reidh (imago), Tuesday, February 18, 2014 10:32 PM (56 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Indeed, but by reversing the early version of 'I Will', it gave Thom Yorke a chord progression to write a top-line to, which isn't an unusual starting point for any song; it's only unusual in the sense that the backing track was already recorded. The decision to have the vocals forwards-but-backwards was an arrangement decision, borne out of the fact that the track was running backwards. He could have easily have sung the song forwards without tampering with it and the song still would have stood up. If Thom hadn't found a worthy top-line to go with the chord progression, the song would have sucked.

er, feels like you guys are treading dangerously close to Geir territory here.

here's a nice li'l homework assignment for ya Turrican: http://open.spotify.com/track/16S7qpNWHl3714n94oZnHT

^^^ostensibly indie-rock guitar band. wonder what you make of it. I happen to think it's fucking amazing

(Electrelane - Business Or Otherwise, for those without Spotify)

protest vote for none of this shit

er, feels like you guys are treading dangerously close to Geir territory here.

― Karl Malone, Tuesday, February 18, 2014 10:42 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

God, no. Absolutely not, and I'd hate for anyone to think that that was the case. Geir deeply hated Kid A for a start, and I don't.

In fact, this is reminding me of what I found so confounding about the general reaction to Kid A "back in the day"... because looking at the tracklisting, every track on the album has a strong core to it. It's a well-produced and superbly arranged album, but it isn't lacking in strong songs or pieces of music that have a strong core to them. Even 'Treefingers' has a structured chord progression.

'Morning Bell' is a case in point: on both Kid A and Amnesiac, it's attempted in two different ways. On Kid A, it's in 5/4 and has the "drum riff" in a more of a "band" type of arrangement, whereas on Amnesiac it's in 4/4 and more mournful. Of course, I prefer the version on Kid A, but the core of the song is so strong that it works either way.

since when has deems obtained to that wide-eyed experimental sensibility that geir was famous for

i am curious about the outcome of this poll. it will surely be a landslide victory for "pyramid song", no?

I have absolutely no idea how this poll is going to go, tbh! I expect 'Pyramid Song' to be up there, though... not sure about a landslide victory.

Strictly speaking, the "song" is the lead melody and the lyrics. Everything else, including the chord progression, falls under arrangement (which is partially why organists will often do alternate harmonizations for the final verse of a hymn that the congregation and choir are singing in unison).

Certain melodies lend themselves to certain chord progressions, often to the point where distinguishing between them is unreasonable, but if you want to boil a song down to it's essence you only really need to care about the melody. Part of why this type of essentialism doesn't work for me is one of my favorite songs is Depeche Mode's "Never Let Me Down Again", which is two alternating notes that gain color and interest based on the chord progression it sits on top of and how the melodic note plays a different function in each chord of the arrangement. Saying that NLMDA doesn't work without the chord progression misses the huge point that the entire piece was built around the chord progression and the overall gestalt is what makes it so powerful musically.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Oh, well I assumed Idioteque was going to win.

wau everything got voted for!

Wow, everything got at least one vote! Very surprised to see 'Pulk/Pull Revolving Doors' higher than 'Motion Picture Soundtrack', 'You and Whose Army?' and 'Optimistic' though!

Generally speaking, songs with cores are really boring! Rhizomatic music all the way.

xpost:

and 'Packt Like Sardines', for that matter!

'pakt like...' is the perfect balance of weird sounds + spare arrangement + hooky writing for me, i loved it from the first time i heard it.

my vote ('kid a') did pretty well!

as for the song = melody/lyrics thing, i guess that's a formal music education definition, which is fine. my first thought is "what about drone music? those aren't 'songs'?" but i suppose i'm taking you guys too literally. the geir thing came in because iirc when pressed on issues like that he'd stick to his guns and be like "no, rap songs are NOT songs. melody is everything. genesis is the greatest band of all time"

ok who was the other In Limbovoter so I can high five them

"what about drone music? those aren't 'songs'?"

If you're talking about instrumental drone music, then no, they aren't, except by the iTunes definition of "songs".

right, which i get. i guess the way i roll is that that i that i DO think of them as songs! and i think that's how most people think of "songs"! but again, i'm not taking a music 101 quiz or anything, so i realize that's not the strict definition.

is that that i that i is that that i that i is that that i that i is that that i that i is that that i that i is that that i that i is that that i that i is that that i that i

god DAMMIT sorry

*whips out camcorder and films plastic bag in the wind*

but actually I agree with Karl here

jazz covers of radiohead is a whole thing unto itself, but they can be cool for highlighting parts that might have gotten obscured by the instrumentation for some people. i hadn't seen this before, i like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSw7TXt3DZE

Interesting that the biggest "hit" on either of these albums came in last

Hi fives to Simon H

xpost - huh? I thought Idioteque and Pyramid Song were the 'hits'

"Optimistic" was pushed out to US radio and semi-inescapable on alternative/modern rock stations for a hot minute

I agree that "Pyramid Song" and "Idioteque" ended up being bigger impact songs, though

Fair dos. Yeah, I think if I were to name a third 'hit' it would have been 'How To Disappear' whihc got played on Radio 1 a bit before the album came out.

IIRC they also released "Knives Out" and "I Might Be Wrong"

I'd say 'Idioteque' got the most airplay of the Kid A tracks in the UK. Can't recall 'Optimistic' getting much, if any exposure here.

Amnesiac to me is where they lost the plot. I get that it's similar in a sense to Kid A, but that one's cohesive in a way this isn't. "Pyramid Song" is amazing but otherwise it's total garb

just thought of this cuz I think of Radiohead whenever Coldplay drops a new album for some strange reason

lol didn't see someone already said "lose the plot" way up there

Kid A is my favorite Radiohead though so I can't agree with the plot-losage there