well if yr complaint is that Eliot implies some sort of literal grading system I think yeah you are missing the point. To varying degrees, some artists make something interesting out of what they borrow, while others do not. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.
xp
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 10 February 2014 21:51 (ten years ago) link
your reading of the quote is very uptight and literal
Maybe-- but then the phrase itself is fairly meaningless as far as "imitating" and "stealing" go. What are the definitions of these words in this sentence? Perhaps someone can explain in a way that doesn't require a circular and/or tautological reading (i.e. "'stealing' is when it's done well, and 'imitating' is when it's done badly).
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 21:53 (ten years ago) link
when i withdraw $80 from the bank after seeing my friend andy do the same, that's imitating. when i withdraw $80 from the bank even though i didn't have $80 in my account, that's stealing. when i spend that $80 on a jake holmes LP at a thrift shop, that's cratedigging. when i import that LP into pro tools and make a new song out of it, that's either sampling, remixing, postmodern or lame, depending on which plug-ins i use.
― fact checking cuz, Monday, 10 February 2014 22:00 (ten years ago) link
throw some reverb on that jawn let's get wild
― sXe & the banshees (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:01 (ten years ago) link
― Poliopolice, Monday, February 10, 2014 4:53 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
that's the whole point of the quote. You're being really dense, it's not analytical philosophy.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:02 (ten years ago) link
lol fcc
― föllakzoidberg (electricsound), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:04 (ten years ago) link
i honestly never knew what "tautological" meant but whenever i see it, it seems like a sign ilx is having some debate that's disappeared up its own butt
― sXe & the banshees (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:09 (ten years ago) link
tautological = disappears up its own butt
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:10 (ten years ago) link
disappearing up your own butt = original
disappearing up someone else's butt = borrowing
― fact checking cuz, Monday, 10 February 2014 22:13 (ten years ago) link
what if it's a taut butt
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:15 (ten years ago) link
they say that butts can be taut. but originality...
I don't know about other conversations where this word was pulled out, but I think it's perfectly appropriate here. Here's a helpful paragraph from the wikipedia page on tautology. It seems to perfectly describe the TS Eliot statement.
In rhetoric, a tautology is a series of statements that form an argument, whereby the statements are constructed in such a way that the truth of the proposition is guaranteed or that, by defining a dissimilar or synonymous term in terms of another, the truth of the proposition or explanation cannot be disputed. Consequently, the statement conveys no useful information regardless of its length or complexity making it unfalsifiable.
1) truth of the statement guaranteed? check.2) words defined in a way that can't be disputed? check.3) no useful information conveyed? check.4) unfalsifiable? check.
That, my friends, is a tautology. It is an annoying aphorism that provides absolutely no insights whatsoever.
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 22:19 (ten years ago) link
You are an annoying aphorism that provides absolutely no insights whatsoever
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:20 (ten years ago) link
(i'm sorry for the tirade. It is one of these phrases that I've heard repeated so many times in bullshit circumstances that I just snapped)
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 22:20 (ten years ago) link
nyah nyah!
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 22:21 (ten years ago) link
this only works as a dismissal of eliot if we assume there is no other rubric by which we can assess the quality of an artist's output (hint: there probably is!)
― ♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:28 (ten years ago) link
"Basically I think it diminishes them as people that they didn't give co-writing credits in at least some of these cases. About 10% of them or so are really egregious cases of stealing, e.g. Dazed and Confused. At the same time, Jake Holmes's version kind of sucks compared to Led Zeppelin. So they're diminished as people but not as a kick ass band.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2)"
i think it diminishes them more as people that they were horrible human beings through most of the '70s, myself. fortunately for me when i listen to a record i very seldom stop to wonder what i think of the musicians as human beings.
― rushomancy, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 00:54 (ten years ago) link
Jesus christ, has anyone ever escaped the past unscathed? Any artist? Any anyone?
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:33 (ten years ago) link
Just Tom Hanks.
― Dr. Strongo's Peppermint Paté (WilliamC), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 02:37 (ten years ago) link
*reads about the mud shark incident*
"NOT YOU TOO ZEP! NOT YOU TOOOOOO!!!!!"
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 02:41 (ten years ago) link
josh: william butler yeats got out of lincoln park okay, at least.
― rushomancy, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 02:49 (ten years ago) link
in re the OP list -- so there's no plagiarism at all on Houses of the Holy?
"D'yer Mak'er" is a reggae rip-off of "Angel Baby" by Rosie & The Originals. (They even put "Whatever happened to Rosie & The Originals?" on the lyric sheet.)
And, of course, "The Crunge" is a James Brown pastiche.
― KCB (Kent Burt), Thursday, 13 February 2014 02:14 (ten years ago) link
It doesn't exactly steal from any specific James Brown tracks though, does it?
― you are clinically deaf and should sell you iPod (stevie), Thursday, 13 February 2014 08:10 (ten years ago) link
Can't think of any JB tracks in 5/8 time or whatever it is. Plant does namecheck a coupla Otis Redding song titles though.
― Sir Lord Baltimora (Myonga Vön Bontee), Thursday, 13 February 2014 18:59 (ten years ago) link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-27497950
― groovypanda, Wednesday, 21 May 2014 07:58 (ten years ago) link
this one seems particularly lazy. the music is just a basic groove - no huge rip there. just write some lyrics, robert.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaXA_Hr0CE8&feature=kp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvKGM93yoCI
― brio, Wednesday, 21 May 2014 13:43 (ten years ago) link
Zep actually co-credited this one to Ritchie Valens' mother, who I believe was originally credited on "Ooh! My Head."
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 13:55 (ten years ago) link
oh carry on then led zeppelinhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0
― brio, Wednesday, 21 May 2014 14:11 (ten years ago) link
Given that it's literally the only instance in their entire catalog of voluntarily giving co-credit, it's understandable that someone would think otherwise.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 14:14 (ten years ago) link
I thought "When the Levee Breaks" was co-credited to Memphis Minnie? It is on my LP.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 15:38 (ten years ago) link
Whoops, you're right, it is!
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 15:42 (ten years ago) link
can't forget Charles Obscure
― Sir Lord Baltimora (Myonga Vön Bontee), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 16:07 (ten years ago) link
i'm kind of torn between thinking copyright laws should allow significantly more reuse and thinking that it's shitty to not give credit to artists you're borrowing from. complicated also by the historical power inequities that are at play when white artists steal from black artists.
what's the copyright situation in jamaica? listening to a lot of reggae recently and thinking about such a remix-heavy culture, with "version upon version" of tunes i can only imagine were not created w/ permission from copyright holders, if there were even clear owners to begin with
― marcos, Wednesday, 21 May 2014 16:43 (ten years ago) link
tealing from the (relatively) rich seems OK and sometimes laudable, stealing from the (relatively) poor feels wrong - but it can't work one way and not the other, can it?
Throwing Randy California's estate a bone seems like the right thing to do - but honestly don't know if he deserves a songwriting credit even though Page almost certainly ripped off Taurus a lil bit.
― brio, Wednesday, 21 May 2014 16:49 (ten years ago) link
lol this thread. 2010 was a different time.
― Neanderthal, Monday, 10 April 2017 00:20 (seven years ago) link
I think criticizing them for not crediting it is very reasonable. Criticizing them for not being "original" or something just seems totally ignorant of the entire history of music.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, February 10, 2014 2:59 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I'll criticize you for being one of the biggest fucking idiots of all time. The toilet plunger plunged up your fucking afterbirth after your mother sat on it, but somehow you miraculously survived.
― Prince Kajuku (Bill Magill), Monday, February 10, 2014 3:03 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
say what you want about Bill but this is ace
― Neanderthal, Monday, 10 April 2017 00:43 (seven years ago) link
This is a p interesting subject actually. No sheet music industry/history! And thus no solid copyright precedents.
― Οὖτις, Monday, 10 April 2017 02:47 (seven years ago) link
what's the copyright situation in jamaica?
Pretty much non-existent it would seem. Producers routinely took credit for writing songs.
― Punnet of the Grapes (Tom D.), Monday, 10 April 2017 09:36 (seven years ago) link
Smiley Culture objected, but.
― Mark G, Monday, 10 April 2017 11:55 (seven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKlu3A3BBgE
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 10 April 2017 14:00 (seven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWlc_D7k9yk
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 10 April 2017 14:01 (seven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsnBT3NofiQ
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 10 April 2017 14:05 (seven years ago) link
I like the Stone Roses' "Second Coming" a lot, but "Tears" always puts me off due to its weirdly slavish imitation of the structure and arrangement of "Stairway"
― Οὖτις, Monday, 10 April 2017 16:23 (seven years ago) link
Ok this list totally left off that they lifted "Immigrant Song" from The Osmonds' "Hold Her Tight."
Well that and the theme tune from Get Smart
― The Jams Manager (1992, Brickster) (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 11 April 2017 00:55 (seven years ago) link
holy shit how did i not notice that before
― a but (brimstead), Tuesday, 11 April 2017 00:58 (seven years ago) link
Heh I started this thread and it might seem like I hate LZ but I actually love them. They stole from so many artists (mainly Plant and Page) but Bonham and JPJ + production make otherwise thin songs sound massive. It's the credit thing I have an issue with, not the transformation of said songs into something epic.
― dance cum rituals (Moka), Tuesday, 11 April 2017 07:00 (seven years ago) link
"Immigrant Song" posts are jokes, I assume? I can't tell who's being serious anymore.
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 April 2017 12:02 (seven years ago) link
Uh no every time I hear it a few hours later I have Get Smart stuck in my head and it took me years to figure out why
― The Jams Manager (1992, Brickster) (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 11 April 2017 12:09 (seven years ago) link
Just in case: "Hold her tight" was 2 years after "Immigrant Song"
― Mark G, Tuesday, 11 April 2017 12:44 (seven years ago) link
Anyway, "Immigrant Song" takes the nick from "Bali Ha'i" South Pacific. True.
― Mark G, Tuesday, 11 April 2017 12:45 (seven years ago) link