Jake Holmes's version kind of sucks compared to Led Zeppelin.
could not disagree with this more
― föllakzoidberg (electricsound), Monday, 10 February 2014 21:11 (ten years ago) link
"One of the surest tests [of the superiority or inferiority of a poet] is the way in which a poet borrows. Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different." - T.S. Eliot
Getting really tired of this moronic, contagiously stupid meme about how the truly great artists "steal." I want someone to come out in unrepentant support of this statement and then tell me how each of the following bands fit into the template: the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Oasis, Bob Dylan, the Ramones, and Nirvana.
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 21:33 (ten years ago) link
"we were the biggest nickers in the book, plagiarists extraordinaire" - P. McCartney
― sleeve, Monday, 10 February 2014 21:37 (ten years ago) link
dylan took people's arrangements of songs, and sometimes lyrics and melodies from trad tunes, most recently stole some stuff from a japanese book and some other old poetry on recent albums
nirvana were embarassed cuz they felt like ppl would just laugh as smells like teen spirit as a pixies ripoff
oasis stole that coke commercial, but they were kind of a shitty band overall tho
ramones probably ripped off some old obscure girl group shit or something, but they are the ramones they rule
― sXe & the banshees (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 10 February 2014 21:41 (ten years ago) link
all those bands are great, and all of them borrowed liberally
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 10 February 2014 21:42 (ten years ago) link
do you really need specific examples? there's so many to choose from
if you want to know how and from whom the beatles, stones, oasis, dylan, the ramones and nirvana dd their stealing, just ask them. they would be happy to tell you. except oasis. you might have to pry it out of oasis with whips and tasers.
― fact checking cuz, Monday, 10 February 2014 21:44 (ten years ago) link
So just for fun, let's compare the Beatles (we can even limit their output to pre-1965) and, say, the Yardbirds. If you had to name one of these bands plagiarizers and the other borrowers, how would you assign them?
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 21:44 (ten years ago) link
Congrats on not understanding the TS Eliot quote
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 February 2014 21:45 (ten years ago) link
My point is that the meme itself is just plain dumb, reductive, and serves no other purpose than to make the person who repeats it sound like they have some profound insight into the nature of reality.
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 21:45 (ten years ago) link
welcome to the internet
― Lesbian has fucking riffs for days (Neanderthal), Monday, 10 February 2014 21:46 (ten years ago) link
seems to me that the burden of proof is on you. in what way do any of those NOT borrow liberally from their peers and predecessors
xp
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 10 February 2014 21:47 (ten years ago) link
The point isn't which word you use, it's that everyone takes from other artists, but the best ones make something new and/or improved out of it, while the weaker artists sound like they're just copying or "imitating."
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 February 2014 21:48 (ten years ago) link
You're right; I don't understand the TS Eliot quote. But that's because it's stupid and falls apart under scrutiny, unless you constantly apply ad hoc rationales to when things count as borrowing and when they count as stealing, so that your previous view of certain artists can be maintained under this theory.
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 21:48 (ten years ago) link
your reading of the quote is very uptight and literal
Shakey, I don't dispute that nearly everyone borrows liberally.
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 21:49 (ten years ago) link
"Hard Day's Night" was actually largely cribbed from obscure blues musician Mango Taft's "Bitch of a Week"
― Lesbian has fucking riffs for days (Neanderthal), Monday, 10 February 2014 21:50 (ten years ago) link
how does "Gangnam Style" fit into all of this
― frogbs, Monday, 10 February 2014 21:51 (ten years ago) link
well if yr complaint is that Eliot implies some sort of literal grading system I think yeah you are missing the point. To varying degrees, some artists make something interesting out of what they borrow, while others do not. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 10 February 2014 21:51 (ten years ago) link
Maybe-- but then the phrase itself is fairly meaningless as far as "imitating" and "stealing" go. What are the definitions of these words in this sentence? Perhaps someone can explain in a way that doesn't require a circular and/or tautological reading (i.e. "'stealing' is when it's done well, and 'imitating' is when it's done badly).
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 21:53 (ten years ago) link
when i withdraw $80 from the bank after seeing my friend andy do the same, that's imitating. when i withdraw $80 from the bank even though i didn't have $80 in my account, that's stealing. when i spend that $80 on a jake holmes LP at a thrift shop, that's cratedigging. when i import that LP into pro tools and make a new song out of it, that's either sampling, remixing, postmodern or lame, depending on which plug-ins i use.
― fact checking cuz, Monday, 10 February 2014 22:00 (ten years ago) link
throw some reverb on that jawn let's get wild
― sXe & the banshees (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:01 (ten years ago) link
― Poliopolice, Monday, February 10, 2014 4:53 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
that's the whole point of the quote. You're being really dense, it's not analytical philosophy.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:02 (ten years ago) link
lol fcc
― föllakzoidberg (electricsound), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:04 (ten years ago) link
i honestly never knew what "tautological" meant but whenever i see it, it seems like a sign ilx is having some debate that's disappeared up its own butt
― sXe & the banshees (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:09 (ten years ago) link
tautological = disappears up its own butt
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:10 (ten years ago) link
disappearing up your own butt = original
disappearing up someone else's butt = borrowing
― fact checking cuz, Monday, 10 February 2014 22:13 (ten years ago) link
what if it's a taut butt
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:15 (ten years ago) link
they say that butts can be taut. but originality...
I don't know about other conversations where this word was pulled out, but I think it's perfectly appropriate here. Here's a helpful paragraph from the wikipedia page on tautology. It seems to perfectly describe the TS Eliot statement.
In rhetoric, a tautology is a series of statements that form an argument, whereby the statements are constructed in such a way that the truth of the proposition is guaranteed or that, by defining a dissimilar or synonymous term in terms of another, the truth of the proposition or explanation cannot be disputed. Consequently, the statement conveys no useful information regardless of its length or complexity making it unfalsifiable.
1) truth of the statement guaranteed? check.2) words defined in a way that can't be disputed? check.3) no useful information conveyed? check.4) unfalsifiable? check.
That, my friends, is a tautology. It is an annoying aphorism that provides absolutely no insights whatsoever.
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 22:19 (ten years ago) link
You are an annoying aphorism that provides absolutely no insights whatsoever
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:20 (ten years ago) link
(i'm sorry for the tirade. It is one of these phrases that I've heard repeated so many times in bullshit circumstances that I just snapped)
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 22:20 (ten years ago) link
nyah nyah!
― Poliopolice, Monday, 10 February 2014 22:21 (ten years ago) link
this only works as a dismissal of eliot if we assume there is no other rubric by which we can assess the quality of an artist's output (hint: there probably is!)
― ♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Monday, 10 February 2014 22:28 (ten years ago) link
"Basically I think it diminishes them as people that they didn't give co-writing credits in at least some of these cases. About 10% of them or so are really egregious cases of stealing, e.g. Dazed and Confused. At the same time, Jake Holmes's version kind of sucks compared to Led Zeppelin. So they're diminished as people but not as a kick ass band.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2)"
i think it diminishes them more as people that they were horrible human beings through most of the '70s, myself. fortunately for me when i listen to a record i very seldom stop to wonder what i think of the musicians as human beings.
― rushomancy, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 00:54 (ten years ago) link
Jesus christ, has anyone ever escaped the past unscathed? Any artist? Any anyone?
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 01:33 (ten years ago) link
Just Tom Hanks.
― Dr. Strongo's Peppermint Paté (WilliamC), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 02:37 (ten years ago) link
*reads about the mud shark incident*
"NOT YOU TOO ZEP! NOT YOU TOOOOOO!!!!!"
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 11 February 2014 02:41 (ten years ago) link
josh: william butler yeats got out of lincoln park okay, at least.
― rushomancy, Tuesday, 11 February 2014 02:49 (ten years ago) link
in re the OP list -- so there's no plagiarism at all on Houses of the Holy?
"D'yer Mak'er" is a reggae rip-off of "Angel Baby" by Rosie & The Originals. (They even put "Whatever happened to Rosie & The Originals?" on the lyric sheet.)
And, of course, "The Crunge" is a James Brown pastiche.
― KCB (Kent Burt), Thursday, 13 February 2014 02:14 (ten years ago) link
It doesn't exactly steal from any specific James Brown tracks though, does it?
― you are clinically deaf and should sell you iPod (stevie), Thursday, 13 February 2014 08:10 (ten years ago) link
Can't think of any JB tracks in 5/8 time or whatever it is. Plant does namecheck a coupla Otis Redding song titles though.
― Sir Lord Baltimora (Myonga Vön Bontee), Thursday, 13 February 2014 18:59 (ten years ago) link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-27497950
― groovypanda, Wednesday, 21 May 2014 07:58 (ten years ago) link
this one seems particularly lazy. the music is just a basic groove - no huge rip there. just write some lyrics, robert.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaXA_Hr0CE8&feature=kp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvKGM93yoCI
― brio, Wednesday, 21 May 2014 13:43 (ten years ago) link
Zep actually co-credited this one to Ritchie Valens' mother, who I believe was originally credited on "Ooh! My Head."
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 13:55 (ten years ago) link
oh carry on then led zeppelinhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0
― brio, Wednesday, 21 May 2014 14:11 (ten years ago) link
Given that it's literally the only instance in their entire catalog of voluntarily giving co-credit, it's understandable that someone would think otherwise.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 14:14 (ten years ago) link
I thought "When the Levee Breaks" was co-credited to Memphis Minnie? It is on my LP.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 15:38 (ten years ago) link
Whoops, you're right, it is!
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 15:42 (ten years ago) link
can't forget Charles Obscure
― Sir Lord Baltimora (Myonga Vön Bontee), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 16:07 (ten years ago) link