Suede

It's been said millions of times already but I'm still impressed that they released this crazy album, being one of the hottest bands on the planet at the time, as a follow up to their smash hit debut album. so gutsy (or suicidal) !
I guess MGMT did something similar (although I've never heard their 2nd album). are there other examples ?

de la soul is dead?

except they had their biggest hit (ring ring ring) on de la soul is dead, no ?

Rid of Me.

Six by Mansun?

I guess I dislike the assumptions you're making about craft and instinct? The first two Suede albums are their best, but Anderson and Oakes coming up with "Trash," "Filmstar," "Saturday Night," and "Beautiful Ones" suggest Oakes had no need to hone any craft: he had plenty already.

Well, yeah, that's what I was saying. I was defending Oakes, not slighting him.

funny I was wondering if it's possible that brett would have credited richard with some songwriting to give him some confidence and strenghthen the band.

― AlXTC from Paris, Thursday, February 6, 2014 2:28 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The way the Anderson/Oakes partnership worked was wildly different from the way Anderson/Butler worked. When Bernard was in the band, Bernard would write and demo the whole chord structure of the song in its entirety, and then give it to Brett so he could work out a melody line and a set of lyrics to go with it. When Bernard wrote the music, it would often not change when Anderson got involved to write his part; the exception being the tracks on Dog Man Star which were edited down when Bernard left the band.

With Richard Oakes, it was different and far more flexible. For example, when Richard wrote the music to 'Together', the verse was originally the chorus and the chorus was originally the verse, and Brett made the decision to swap them around. A lot of the Anderson/Oakes Coming Up tracks were written in the same room together as a collaboration, whereas Anderson/Butler worked separately. On that album, Brett would often get an idea for the melody line first and then he'd go around to see Richard Oakes and work out the chord structure around the melody line, passing ideas backwards and forwards and adding bits/junking bits that didn't work until they completed the song.

yeah, I can totally see these two different ways of working. the main thing, for me, is that with richard, I suppose it was brett who had the upper hand and final word whereas with bernard the "power" (ah !) was more balanced (although brett was also older than bernard and recruited him by classified ad).
I think richard was more a collaborator than a songwriting partner. I don't know if this makes sense !

listening to "hollywood life" I'm still impressed by how dirty/powerful the guitars are !

Yeah, I totally understand what you're getting at. In Anderson/Butler Suede, there were essentially two bosses and neither would budge for each other. It's like "this is the music, and this is how it's going to be, and I want it to sound the way that I want it to sound" and "these are lyrics, I don't give a shit about whether you object to it being a squalid song about junkies, that's how they are and I'm not changing it". With Richard Oakes and Neil Codling, they chipped in with ideas but Brett was ultimately the boss.

exactly !
that makes me think of another question that's always seemed weird to me in songwriting partnerships where things are totally divided between music and words/melody as I've also made songs with a partner : I have difficulty thinking bernard would make the whole musical parts without ANY idea of the melodies.

there's John-Taupin. The latter writes lyrics without music, then hands them to Elton.

yeah the lyrics only aspect I can easily see. it's the dichotomy between music and vocal melodies that seems weird to me.

I have difficulty thinking bernard would make the whole musical parts without ANY idea of the melodies.

― AlXTC from Paris, Thursday, February 6, 2014 5:00 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Bernard has often remarked that the top lines and lyrics that Brett would write to his chord sequences would be completely different to what he was expecting. This is pure speculation, but I do think it's possible that when Bernard was writing the music, he had his own ideas of what lyrical themes and vocal melodies would go on top, which is why he was often a bit pissed off when Brett turned 'The Living Dead' into a song about junkies and called one of his pieces of music 'Killing Of A Flash Boy'.

there's John-Taupin. The latter writes lyrics without music, then hands them to Elton.

― Bryan Fairy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, February 6, 2014 5:07 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yup, Difford-Tilbrook too.

i've posted this half hour Pete Pahpides-narrated BBC docu elsewhere but really it's amazing. it's from a series called Follow Up Albums on Radio 4.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01j6srs

You know, I can understand why they cut off the outro section for 'The Wild Ones', but at the same time I have a real fondness for the unedited version.

yeah me too it's fuckin great innit. i'm glad they cut Asphalt World in half mind. even that goes on forever. IMO.

Hum. That's one of the cases where I agree with brett's pop sensibility. Bernard's instrumental parts are not so good and necessary on the extended/original version of "wild ones". Which is funny because it might be his best guitar parts otherwise !

OK, I've just scanned in the DMS pages from the vinyl box set book that I mentioned. Kind of tricky because it's the size of a record and my scanner is just A4, but I managed. Here it is for those interested:

Part 1: http://imgur.com/cFtqCZg
Part 2: http://imgur.com/D1sE9oy
Part 3: http://imgur.com/2RQHm8O
Part 4: http://imgur.com/YA3KhxC
Part 5: http://imgur.com/ggPuEdn
Part 6: http://imgur.com/qy9nxLM
Part 7: http://imgur.com/X9faPDM
Part 8: http://imgur.com/QiP3V0S

I'm still impressed that they released this crazy album, being one of the hottest bands on the planet at the time, as a follow up to their smash hit debut album. so gutsy (or suicidal) !
I guess MGMT did something similar (although I've never heard their 2nd album). are there other examples ?

― AlXTC from Paris

Beauty Stab is always a good answer to this question.

amazing work EK, gonna rifle thru those now

Great stuff.

Oh yeah, that reminds me: where was everyone's votes for Bloodsports in the EOY poll!?

Thanks for uploading that Eyeball Kicks. Very interesting to read through it all.

Oh and Turrican, I had Bloodsports in my top 10. I did my best.

Really regretting not getting that vinyl box set now as it seems to have sold out everywhere. I bought those deluxe editions already and couldn't really justify getting these too, even though I'm much more into vinyl these days.

It's really nice. I think all of the albums (including Sci-fi Lullabies) are getting released separately on vinyl on February 17, though, if you want to pick any of them up. They're all on Amazon now.

Nice. That means I can skip Head Music and A New Morning and just get the good albums. Actually I do still like some of Head Music but don't see myself shelling out the money for it on vinyl.

oh wow, thanks Eyeball Kicks !

thanks Eyeball Kicks these are great.

Yeah thanks Eyeball, those make great reading. Would never have picked up on the Neil Young influence in 'We Are the Pigs' but I can totally hear Crazy Horse in the verses now.

yup, it's fantastic to have an insight into the making of DMS. I'd never heard about many of these.
it's funny how bernard is focused on the relationship with simon.
and regarding "power" I was right about the guitars not being what bernard would have done !

Man, have I been on a serious Suede kick for the last couple of days! They're that kind of band, aren't they? One you don't listen to for ages, and then just wanna binge on everything they've ever done.

It's pretty well known that Simon and Bernard didn't really get on well, especially during the Dog Man Star era.

Man, have I been on a serious Suede kick for the last couple of days! They're that kind of band, aren't they? One you don't listen to for ages, and then just wanna binge on everything they've ever done.

― Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican)

Think I'm about to have one of those Suede binges myself. Might not quite go through ever thing (finally threw out my copy of A New Morning last year) but going to through all the good albums and B-sides very soon. Love this band.

As much as I don't rate Head Music or A New Morning as highly as the first three, Bloodsports and Sci-Fi Lullabies (the first disc of which is out-and-out amazing and might even be my favourite collection of Suede songs ever), I don't think I could ever bring myself to part with them. I still have more than a fondness for tracks like 'Obsessions', for example!

Jesus christ, 'It Starts and Ends With You' is like 10% verse and 90% chorus!

Head Music vastly underrated, imho. The third-best Suede record.

Head Music > Bloodsports

Bloodsports has a shrieking, thin mix but the songs are marvels.

I think I prefer them trying new things (that often didn't work) on HM vs them playing to the gallery on B.
Kind of Beauty Stab vs Alphabet City.

Bloodsports doesn't really have any songs I ever want to skip. Head Music could do with losing three or four songs.

Bloodsports is very close to replacing Coming Up as my third favourite (real) Suede album these days.

Dog Man Star
Sci-Fi Lullabies
Suede
Coming Up
Bloodsports
Head Music
A New Morning (Obsessions, You Belong to me and Oceans are the only keepers on here)

"it starts and end" is the only song that grabbed my attention on "bloodsports". it's nice but not great, though.
I really liked "head music" at the time but, like "coming up" I never feel like listening to it again.
for me it's bernard era only, now, basically !
it's funny because with some imagination, I can sort of imagine the tears album could have been the follow up to DMS instead of "coming up".
it still has the dark and epic stuff but with some lighter and even groovier stuff !

I firmly believe that the first three tracks on Bloodsports are up there with some of Suede's best... and man, that breakdown on 'Always' is just sublime.

I was re-watching the paris concert on the DMS remaster and god the quality of the film is awful ! how could they not find another concert film with a better picture quality !!?? it's criminal to release something like that... it also reminds me that I couldn't go to that concert at the time and that also pisses me off !
anyway, there's a very weird part on "we are the pigs", before the guitar solos. anyone has any idea about that ?

The sound of the hi-hats throughout Bloodsports is just fucking inexcusable. And has anybody listened to the b-sides "Darkest Days" and "Human Tide?" They're leagues worse than the album itself!

I can't believe these mixes made it out of the studio. I know it's been discussed upthread, but this is simply one of the worst sounding modern releases I've ever heard. A shame, because otherwise it's a corker.

Agree with you about the hi-hats etc. I did most of the moaning about this kind of stuff upthread.

I've just listened to these b-sides you mention. I don't understand what you mean by "leagues worse than the album" - aren't b-sides supposed to be worse? Anyway, you're being very harsh. "Darkest Days" is really quite good and the other one just sounds like... a b-side. Not a big crime.

I meant the mixes! I actually really love both of those songs (I'd even switch out an album track or two for them)... I mean, the mixes somehow manage to be even worse than the album mixes... just completely, bafflingly bad.

Listening on headphones right now... like, when the chorus of "Darkest Days" kicks in, it's like my ears are being swarmed by thousands of bees made of digital ice.

Does anyone own the vinyl of Bloodsports? Wondered if that sounds any better. The only big problem I have are those crackles on What Are You Not Telling Me which spoil a really beautiful moment.

did you plan to upload the debut album interviews from that vinyl box set Eyeball? some fascinating stuff in the DMS bits. i mean i'm sure you've got better things to do like...