"OK Computer": Classic Or Dud?

"music writers like to make grandiose statements about albums and exaggerate all of these interesting qualities into something not just interesting, but universe-changing"

from the velvet underground came a whole vein of rock that existed in parallel to mainstream, but what did radiohead produce?

-- deej

many many xposts

I understand what Nick is saying about the production - obvs he's not saying that Coldplay = Radiohead. For lack of better terms, Radiohead records sound too slick, too radio-ready even if the songs themselves will never be played on pop radio. fwiw, the band admits as much but acknowledge that they can't help themselves - it's a result of their tendency to overthink and rework their music until it's completely perfect and flawless, which dulls the spontaneous energy of their songs. all those interesting rhythms and melodies - they're still there and they're why Radiohead remain interesting but it comes out on record sort of... muted, I guess? like, Kid A didn't make sense to me at all until I saw them live and was all WHOA and it wasn't like they fucked with the arrangements or anything. I sometimes wish they'd switch producers once in a while but their one attempt to do so failed so Godrich will prob be producing their albums forever.

anyway, production isn't really a big deal for me as it is for Nick but I get where he's coming from.

i mean im trying to get an idea of what exactly it is that radiohead's impact meant in a real sense - musically, what did they do differently, what was the big sea change they caused, what did the bands that follow do differently as a result, or what DIDNT they do, or why is OK Computer's 'subtle' use of electronics such a big deal? isnt it a bigger deal that other artists were less subtle with it? or that U2 was willing/unafraid to embrace the hedonistic/dancefloor/populist aspects of 'electronic music' while still being all detached and pomo about it?

now when did i say radiohead was universe-changing ffs, they made some good albums, that's all! i'm not saying they did anything to music except enrich it with their own contributions

perfect and flawless is a good idea and i wish bands did it more, you can still sound fresh and spontaneous if you get it right

we should set up a poll or something of "OK Computers"

ill go along with the idea that this album is 'classic' but i cant get behind the notion that they changed the game in any significant way

'set the stage for coldplay' is about the best i can come up with

i really have to question the idea that radiohead's cultural influence was larger than U2's in the 90s

is anyone here claiming that they changed the game at all? I think the reaction to this album surprised the band more than anyone else.

U2 were going in a really shitty, obvious direction, and radiohead were incorporating subtle uses of electronic instrumentation and post-production

wtf does "post-production" mean in terms of making a record? I think what you mean is "production."

post-modern

I'm not sure perfect & flawless and fresh & spontaneous (or alive, I might say) are possible to combine - I can't think of many who manage it, and certainly not in a mainstream context. Notwist, as I've said before, might get close for me, but they're a little minor concern indie band.

Also, U2 are just (generally, and definitely currently, although not always) just really really really fucking horrible.

"post-performance" is what Louis means I think.

deej, here is my controversial opinion on Radiohead's "influence":

If you look at where rock music went after Radiohead saturated the American music scene, you start seeing previously-quirky bands popping up as mass-market hits (The Flaming Lips, Modest Mouse) along with a bunch of newer quirkier-acts getting commercial props (Death Cab For Cutie, Fall Out Boy, Panic! At The Disco). I think you can directly or indirectly tie all of these back to Radiohead bending what people would accept on their radios from a rock band (despite their radio play falling off dramatically after OK Computer).

Dud.

Just completely humorless. I can't stomach it.

was gonna say about U2, I really fucking hate them

What did Radiohead create? They projected this haunted, exquisitely soulful (but somehow debased and defeated) humanity onto/into the mechanical apparatus of their superslick arena rock. At the same time, they dragged in a universe of textures and a way of experiencing sonic texture as an aspect of pop music that clearly owed something to electronic music (and also to pop-prog in the vein of later Pink Floyd). Separated from one another, these things might not be remarkable, but they fused the two elements – delicate injury and music as a primarily textural experience – in a may that made them seem like one thing. Humanity is a ghost in Radiohead’s music, but it’s an incredibly rich, lush and tangible non-presence. Their electronic interpolations aren’t there for contrast, but to highlight and illustrate the terribly fragility of the human. This theme, the essential failed-ness of the human, an almost sickeningly sentimental embrace of the remains of the human, like a baby cradled in the wake of a terrible blow, is present at every level in their music. The point to my mind isn’t that they went all electronic-y or proggy or something, but that they made these things part of how their music addressed and embodied the human experience. And it’s not like they invented the endearing qualities of being a tiny flesh-blob smushed inside the apparatus-world, but they gave those qualities a LOUD and unique pop voice, a voice that’s so strong and so intrinsically right that it now seems inseperable from the experience it conveys, perhaps even from the experience of (post) modern life.

There are many, many great passages in Kill Your Friends by John Niven (American Psycho transposed to London music A&R in 1997) where the narrator goes on about having heard Radiohead's new record and how it's "unlistenable, unmarketable prog shit".

If you look at where rock music went after Radiohead saturated the American music scene, you start seeing previously-quirky bands popping up as mass-market hits (The Flaming Lips, Modest Mouse) along with a bunch of newer quirkier-acts getting commercial props (Death Cab For Cutie, Fall Out Boy, Panic! At The Disco). I think you can directly or indirectly tie all of these back to Radiohead bending what people would accept on their radios from a rock band (despite their radio play falling off dramatically after OK Computer).

-- HI DERE

Jesus fucking do you realize christ, I mean.

None of the quirkiness of Death Cab or Flips or whoever is really much AT ALL compared to such big 60s radio hits as Good Vibrations or, god, any Beatles song post-1965. Radiohead might have made it OK to play Flips on the radio or something but that ought not to have a been a big deal.

Yeah, because one thing that current rock stations are playing to death right now is "Good Vibrations".

Also lots of hip hop and chart music still being fucking mad radical and bonkers and only purist whiteboy indieguitarfuXXors being nasty little conservative meat&potato little shits by comparison.

contenderizers long post is making me totally change my mind, stop that.

I'm not talking about right now, Dan, 1997 isn't right now either, but... Karma Police vs Missy Elliott.

me too, i'm selling my radiohead cds now xpost

Contenderizer's post is nice and good and all but at the end of the day I'm not going to feel Radiohead the way he does. Cop Shoot Cop vs The Tourist; I know what blew my mind more in 97.

I was just joking'!

I'm not talking about right now, Dan, 1997 isn't right now either, but... Karma Police vs Missy Elliott.

... I kind of don't see how that changes my point at all (namely who cares if "Good Vibrations" was more radical for its day when its day was 30 years prior to what was happening when OK Computer came out and therefore under even more of the hindsight pooh-poohing than OC is now).

by which I mean, great post, and I think I really understand why you like this band, I only wish I could articulate why I don't so well

fwiw "Cop Shoot Cop" IS way better than "The Tourist"

You need to work on yr timign then, IKR.

Contenderizer's post is nice and good and all but at the end of the day I'm not going to feel Radiohead the way he does.

-- Scik Mouthy

Loved Cop Shoot Cop back in the day, but they seem MUCH sillier than I remember when I try to listen to 'em now. I say this 'cuz I picked up a used copy of Consumer Revolt a few weeks ago. Foetus' Nail holds up better 'cuz he's more inclined to admit/embrace the silliness.

timign?

xp, sorry what?

Foetus is hilarious

er pretty sure we're talking Spiritualized here (tho Cop Shoot Cop and Foetus are also both awesome, probably more awesome than any other bands mentioned on this thread including Radiohead)

Okay, that makes MUCH more sense. Was getting a little dizzy there.

Aye, I've never heard Cop Shoot Cop the band; should I?

I advocate hearing them but I will not guarantee at all that you'll like them.

Push It Out >>>>> everything on OK Computer.

Now that I've got my mind right, Spiritualized is a really good reference point, and a decent way to challenge the idea of Radiohead's single-handed game-changingness.

Spiritualized is the one I always use (and generally get shot down for).

The big three progressive Britpop/rock albums of 97 in the UK were Radiohead, Spiritualized and The Verve; while I now pretty much dislike The Verve's effort, at the time I ranked the Sp, Verve, RH. Now Sp, RH, Verve. I think BSS does something RH have never managed.

mark s is a monumental douchebag and this thread is as good an exhibition as any.

Reckoner would be beautiful but there's no intimacy to it, it's fake. I can't buy into it. I don't think that Yorke means anything, I don't think the band care. It's like a beautifully designed car that no can ever drive.

It's like they got all these elements together that I love individually and would like to see sitting next to each other, like Louis' idea of how music ought to take in EVERYTHING, express and progress and performance and production and all at once, and Radiohead DID IT but when they hold it out in front oif me I just go "oh" instead of "wow" because it's like a big impressive equation that I can respect because I could never manage to make it balance myself but that i also, simply, really, deep down, just do. not. give. a. fuck. about.

I remember my mate Adam... bumped into him in WHSmiths just before Kid A came out, there was a review in Uncut or something, and he was all like "wow, look at this" and read out the description and said "doesn't that sound like the best record ever?" and yeah it kind of did when you broke it down but then you actually listen to it (I actually listen to it) and, no, I still prefer Drawn From Memory by Embrace, which is a vastly inferior and massively less popular record in many ways, but which moves me and excites me precisely because it's broken and short-sighted and wrong-headed. You like people for their talents but love them for their failings, maybe.

it's fake. I can't buy into it. I don't think that Yorke means anything, I don't think the band care. It's like a beautifully designed car that no can ever drive.

-- Scik

You like people for their talents but love them for their failings, maybe.

-- Scik

Radiohead are about being in love with failure, but they're too perfect to love.

Are we talking about a band or a mid-life crisis?

Aye. They're not just singing about Fake Plastic Trees, they ARE fake plastic trees.