a lot of it has affinities to the NeoCons i think but who knows any more, this is mostly sectarians looking for a narrower sect to wedge into
― Noodle of the Vague family (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 28 November 2013 11:50 (ten years ago) link
They get a fair amount of money from corporate funding, iirc.
― Ramnaresh Samhain (ShariVari), Thursday, 28 November 2013 11:54 (ten years ago) link
yeah I think they're not remotely of the left now (though they might make the odd noise about entryism, idk) - it's a weird cocktail of US-Style libertarianism, 'Enlightenment' grandstanding, trolling for £££.
― woof, Thursday, 28 November 2013 12:10 (ten years ago) link
I think we can agree that they are Twats not Visionaries
― Thomas K Amphong (Tom D.), Thursday, 28 November 2013 12:12 (ten years ago) link
✔✓☑୰
― woof, Thursday, 28 November 2013 12:39 (ten years ago) link
O'Neill is - it pains me to me say this - otm about the way the story has changed since the initial reports.
The Furedi piece is also actually very good on this, it's kind of a classic spiked move to stir up the fog of confusion and contradiction around an issue and then... actually I'm not sure what he's arguing for beyond that, other than he's against the media misappropriation of the term 'slavery' (which perhaps is fair enough? i dunno). O'Neill seemed to be in favour of leaving it to the police to sort out and then he spent most of the remainder of the article highlighting perceived police incompetence and backtracking.
― space bl00ps (NickB), Thursday, 28 November 2013 12:43 (ten years ago) link
The Spiked lot are numbingly consistent in their views (down with liberals, reformers, do-gooders and victims, up with the average joe as long as he's thick-skinned and self-sufficient enough not to need any help from anybody ever) but not particularly good at translating those views into consistent articles because reality keeps getting in the way.
― Deafening silence (DL), Thursday, 28 November 2013 12:53 (ten years ago) link
Furedi's railing against the media misappropriation of the term 'slavery' kind of falls down on the fact that he appears to think that there has only been one real historical form of slavery, and that was slavery in the americas in the 18th century? (and his definition of even that is a very very limited stereotype, of the male plantation slave in shackles)
― thighs without a face (c sharp major), Thursday, 28 November 2013 13:04 (ten years ago) link
and it's only this apparent belief that domestic slavery and debt slavery have never existed that enables his ignorance of how the term 'slavery' has a broad use, and might be appropriate to cases that aren't this one -- well, that and using a dictionary definition like a first year undergraduate.
― thighs without a face (c sharp major), Thursday, 28 November 2013 13:10 (ten years ago) link
There's something deeply cynical about the way he uses historical outrages only in order to disparage lesser outrages today. I'm uneasy with reusing the word "holocaust" in other contexts but I think "slavery" is flexible enough to withstand diverse applications.
― Deafening silence (DL), Thursday, 28 November 2013 13:47 (ten years ago) link
xp or maybe not:
i'm not all that up on current usage of the term tbh, but that all sounds fair enough. i did get a vague sense that furedi is waiting to call out as racist anyone who would dare to assail his conception of a one true form of human slavery.
― space bl00ps (NickB), Thursday, 28 November 2013 13:51 (ten years ago) link
Up to page 700-odd in Tilbury's biog., he's just about to cover Stockhausen Serves Imperialism. Crazy how these whimsical good-.natured bohos turned into icy Maoist robots... and so rapidly too.
― Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:01 (eight years ago) link
Sounds like you are enjoying yourself.
Can't remember reading a good review of this.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:08 (eight years ago) link
love this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm3SNk3ffoA
― ogmor, Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:27 (eight years ago) link
1071 pages
― oppen gangland style (nakhchivan), Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:29 (eight years ago) link
You only live once.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:40 (eight years ago) link
Pretty much my thinking, got the chance to read it, beats working etc. Tell you what though, it was all that Keith Rowe's fault... and Chairman Mao's.
― Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:54 (eight years ago) link
Hard not to snigger @ the Scratch Orchestra changing its name to the Red Flame Proletarian Propaganda Team, to name but one of the increasing absurdities as the page numbers pile up.
― Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:56 (eight years ago) link
Past the 850 mark and, in timely fashion, David Bowie has popped up, story recounted here.
― Narayan Superman (Tom D.), Tuesday, 12 January 2016 18:58 (eight years ago) link
950+. Cardew has just been to a Marxist-Leninist cultural festival in West Germany as one of three members of the Stalin Youth Group, he was 43 at the time.
― Narayan Superman (Tom D.), Friday, 15 January 2016 23:21 (eight years ago) link
lol
― emil.y, Friday, 15 January 2016 23:30 (eight years ago) link
hahahaha
― Man Bun B (jim in glasgow), Friday, 15 January 2016 23:49 (eight years ago) link
Figured out how to live.
― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 17 January 2016 10:43 (eight years ago) link
man I really need this book
― grant holt (prettylikealaindelon), Sunday, 17 January 2016 14:06 (eight years ago) link
I'm more than happy with Tom D's updates tbh.
― Fizzles, Sunday, 17 January 2016 14:52 (eight years ago) link
Finished. You'll thank me for it one day. The last third was a long grind, or a Long March.
― The Return of the Thin White Pope (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 21:40 (eight years ago) link
great updates, "Red Flame Proletarian Propaganda Team" pretty much ended me.
― Cornelius Pardew (jim in glasgow), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 21:42 (eight years ago) link
In honour of the CPGB(ML)'s Progressive Cultural Association's Punk Rock Is Fascist! slogan, I'm working on a punk version of one of Cardew's later I HEART MAO pieces. To be fair, the comrades were never entirely convinced of the wisdom of the Punk Rock Is Fascist! campaign, apart from Cardew (of course) and, er, John Tilbury!
Some stuff for you rock fans out there:
The Scratch Orchestra apparently did a 45 minute version of "Sister Ray" at a concert in '69/'70 - even longer than the Velvets were doing themselves at the time. (Also, in a footnote earlier in the book, Tilbury attributes the composition of the music in "Sister Ray" solely to John Cale - which seems very bourgeois of him.)
Cardew supposedly 'jammed' onstage with Tangerine Dream in Berlin in 1973, though Tilbury speculates that it might have been with Agitation Free instead.
― The Return of the Thin White Pope (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 21:58 (eight years ago) link
want the book but its like 80$ on amazon.
― Option ARMs and de Man (s.clover), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 22:20 (eight years ago) link
i hunted down some of his later stuff that was performed at his memorial, i think? and i liked it quite a bit
― Option ARMs and de Man (s.clover), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 22:22 (eight years ago) link
I am fond of some of the later piano pieces, but the few proletarian rock songs I've heard are dreadful.
― The Return of the Thin White Pope (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 23:33 (eight years ago) link
Was just saying to a friend over the weekend the only biog I remember reading in the last 10 years was Jean Genet by Edmund White.
Since then I have read about two biogs I want to read and this is one of them. Well done for finishing it.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 21 January 2016 09:08 (eight years ago) link
Stupidly, I've started reading the BS Johnson biog, having promised myself only to read novels for the foreseeable future.
― The Return of the Thin White Pope (Tom D.), Thursday, 21 January 2016 12:01 (eight years ago) link
I love Treatise and like some of his later piano music but I'm only now just listening to the album: 'Consciously', wow lol, sounds like a parody.
― grant holt (prettylikealaindelon), Thursday, 21 January 2016 13:16 (eight years ago) link
It's hilarious but, if you excuse the pun, not consciously so.
― The Return of the Thin White Pope (Tom D.), Thursday, 21 January 2016 13:23 (eight years ago) link
1970. Pre-Mao.
https://collectionimages.npg.org.uk/large/mw283312/Cornelius-Cardew.jpg
― Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Saturday, 5 June 2021 13:35 (three years ago) link
cute
― Left, Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:07 (three years ago) link
"Consciously" sounds like the worst imaginable result of Art Bears trying to go commercial.
― Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:23 (three years ago) link
I've got to imagine "condescension" wasn't in his lexicon.
― Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:25 (three years ago) link
From the "Bits of songs that sound like bits of other songs" thread:
Chorus of "Smash the Social Contract" by Cornelius Cardew and chorus of "Funky Gibbon" by the Goodies.― Saturated with working class intelligence and not afraid to show it (Tom D.), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:44 AM (seven years ago) bookmarkflaglink
― Saturated with working class intelligence and not afraid to show it (Tom D.), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:44 AM (seven years ago) bookmarkflaglink
Was this ever resolved? So basically the Goodies mowed CC down on their trusty trandem, outraged at his blatant looting of their hit single, all as part of a fiendish plot to seize the means of black pudding production from the proletariat? Correct me if I'm wrong.
― Best regards, HM Revenue & Customs (Matt #2), Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:33 (three years ago) link
this stuff is endlessly fascinating to me in the ways it both fails and sort-of succeeds at pop. catchy, kitschy, hilarious and tragic all at oncehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXEDZy4Z8os
― Left, Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:35 (three years ago) link
(xp) As I think I said on this thread or some other thread, Dave McRae from Matching Mole (of 'Little Red Record' er, fame) played on (arranged?) the Goodies records, and I can very well imagine him being familiar with Cardew's work - so maybe the Goodies ripped off Cardew?
― Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:37 (three years ago) link
The songs are terrible but, tbf to Cardew, he was expected to churn out dozens of musical settings of the proclamations and thoughts of Hardial Bains as his contribution to the victory of the proletariat. Now, if only he'd realized that "Mouldy Old Dough" could have been re-written as "Hardial Bains".
― Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:47 (three years ago) link
the last time we discussed this (on a monty python thread, to morbs's huge irritation lol) i raised the possiblity that this shared tune has been repurposed from some common-property chant that pre-exists both: i referred to it as the "vote vote vote for nigel barton" song -- apparently in the belief that this 1965 dennis potter play includes this line being chanted (presumably by barton's political followers?) to this tune
obviously it would fit well, but does this actually happen? i was very confident previously but i now have no idea why
― mark s, Saturday, 5 June 2021 16:20 (three years ago) link
Oh yes, I remember that discussion.
― Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Saturday, 5 June 2021 16:25 (three years ago) link
first appearance also of matt #2's mysterious-tricycle solution to the cardew hit-and-run
― mark s, Saturday, 5 June 2021 16:28 (three years ago) link
xps would have helped if he was open to actually learning anything from actual (black) popular music & its connection with already existing struggles instead of trying to reinvent the wheel like a typical vanguardist. he’s obviously a unique figure but in that & so many other ways (the confused anti-imperialism, class guilt, hopeless attempts at populism) he feels like such a familiar “type” on the UK left, he’s painful & fascinating to hear/read/read about
― Left, Saturday, 5 June 2021 16:29 (three years ago) link
This is quite a light hearted encounter between Cardew and some stuffy Radio 3 guy (from 1972 probably?) which shows he hadn't quite lost his sense of humour yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oksUcVauHXM
― Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Saturday, 5 June 2021 16:38 (three years ago) link
the last time we discussed this (on a monty python thread, to morbs's huge irritation lol) i raised the possiblity that this shared tune has been repurposed from some common-property chant that pre-exists both: i referred to it as the "vote vote vote for nigel barton"
Yeah, this.There's an episode of "the odd couple" where tony randall reminisces about his time in the army and sings "let's hit hitler where he lives" to this tune.I forget what the original is but p. sure it's a British march.
― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Saturday, 5 June 2021 17:08 (three years ago) link
I forget what the original is
This is gonna drive me nuts all day
― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Saturday, 5 June 2021 17:17 (three years ago) link