"OK Computer": Classic Or Dud?

radiohead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pink floyd

btw

pretty much every non-rock album that was even more radically changing the face of pop music around this time

Do we have to talk about Oval? Oh, go on then.

The problem, deej, is that regardless of the actual quantitative difference of OK Computer to the music around it, enough people reacted to it as if it was a full-on sea change to the music scene (a reaction that was magnified with Kid A) that that became the historical context. You can't divorce the music from the context in which it appeared and "get" why people say what they say about it; it would be like hearing Nevermind for the first time in 1998.

this is why people shouldn't listen to the press bullshit because really, ok computer is just a really excellent example of a particular type of album and and might only be groundbreaking to the band themselves and not music overall. music writers like to make grandiose statements about albums and exaggerate all of these interesting qualities into something not just interesting, but universe-changing. i don't think that ok computer is much different in terms of pushing boundaries than U2's music in the '90s, but then again U2 was moving in a dance/rock direction at this time and radiohead was going proggy and one of them is more critic and core audience-friendly. i always liked both moves just about the same.

whoa

was this album any more important or effective an attempt to bridge gaps between the cutting edge and stadium rock as U2's 3 90s albums?

U2 were going in a really shitty, obvious direction, and radiohead were incorporating subtle uses of electronic instrumentation and post-production into a genuinely explorative new means of producing popular rock, the two aren't even comparable IMO

hey louis what does what you just posted actually mean in concrete terms

What U2 was doing was perfectly fine, IMO. The only album of theirs that I understand people disliking is Rattle And Hum, and that's because they make a horrible blues band.

omar beat me to u2 comparison

there was nothing particularly obvious about 'Numb' at the time. it was probably as big a curveball as they could throw while still maintaining some semblance of their established aesthetic.

Making it pop counts for a lot, and that's why invoking Oval doesn't diminish what Radiohead's accomplishments. Radiohead changed the way a generation heard and made music not by inventing every single sound they produced, but by incorporating a lot of interesting ideas (both their own and those of others) into compelling, successful, radio-friendly pop.

(that aesthetic having only been established with the previous album mind you) xpost

i don't think passengers or zooropa were obvious at all! pop maybe a little more but even then only on a couple of tunes. regardless we're talking about two different bands with two different styles attempting to embrace what were at the time so-called "modern" sounds and i don't actually think they were trying to do the same thing at all.

The problem, deej, is that regardless of the actual quantitative difference of OK Computer to the music around it, enough people reacted to it as if it was a full-on sea change to the music scene (a reaction that was magnified with Kid A) that that became the historical context. You can't divorce the music from the context in which it appeared and "get" why people say what they say about it; it would be like hearing Nevermind for the first time in 1998.

-- HI DERE, Tuesday, August 19, 2008 12:29 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yah but something has to actually come from that for it to mean something; like from the velvet underground came a whole vein of rock that existed in parallel to mainstream, but what did radiohead produce? I'm not sure I see their existence being so key to how fans interact with music today

whatever, I just love 94 Diskont

They weren't going for the same thing. But Radiohead's thing was more original and fluid IMO. Many of U2's songs from the Passengers/Zooropa period come off as genre exercises. Not that there aren't some good'uns; "Your Blue Room" and "United Colors of Plutonium" are the best things they ever did IMO

how were they being more original?

i don't think that ok computer is much different in terms of pushing boundaries than U2's music in the '90s, but then again U2 was moving in a dance/rock direction at this time and radiohead was going proggy and one of them is more critic and core audience-friendly.

more inventive, subtle, wide-ranging use of sound! i can't go into every example ffs, we'd be here all night xpost

lol and what do you have to do on a Tuesday night?

i really have to question the idea that radiohead's cultural influence was larger than U2's in the 90s - never mind how you could even measure such a thing, it just seems to defy logic

"music writers like to make grandiose statements about albums and exaggerate all of these interesting qualities into something not just interesting, but universe-changing"

from the velvet underground came a whole vein of rock that existed in parallel to mainstream, but what did radiohead produce?

-- deej

many many xposts

I understand what Nick is saying about the production - obvs he's not saying that Coldplay = Radiohead. For lack of better terms, Radiohead records sound too slick, too radio-ready even if the songs themselves will never be played on pop radio. fwiw, the band admits as much but acknowledge that they can't help themselves - it's a result of their tendency to overthink and rework their music until it's completely perfect and flawless, which dulls the spontaneous energy of their songs. all those interesting rhythms and melodies - they're still there and they're why Radiohead remain interesting but it comes out on record sort of... muted, I guess? like, Kid A didn't make sense to me at all until I saw them live and was all WHOA and it wasn't like they fucked with the arrangements or anything. I sometimes wish they'd switch producers once in a while but their one attempt to do so failed so Godrich will prob be producing their albums forever.

anyway, production isn't really a big deal for me as it is for Nick but I get where he's coming from.

i mean im trying to get an idea of what exactly it is that radiohead's impact meant in a real sense - musically, what did they do differently, what was the big sea change they caused, what did the bands that follow do differently as a result, or what DIDNT they do, or why is OK Computer's 'subtle' use of electronics such a big deal? isnt it a bigger deal that other artists were less subtle with it? or that U2 was willing/unafraid to embrace the hedonistic/dancefloor/populist aspects of 'electronic music' while still being all detached and pomo about it?

now when did i say radiohead was universe-changing ffs, they made some good albums, that's all! i'm not saying they did anything to music except enrich it with their own contributions

perfect and flawless is a good idea and i wish bands did it more, you can still sound fresh and spontaneous if you get it right

we should set up a poll or something of "OK Computers"

ill go along with the idea that this album is 'classic' but i cant get behind the notion that they changed the game in any significant way

'set the stage for coldplay' is about the best i can come up with

i really have to question the idea that radiohead's cultural influence was larger than U2's in the 90s

is anyone here claiming that they changed the game at all? I think the reaction to this album surprised the band more than anyone else.

U2 were going in a really shitty, obvious direction, and radiohead were incorporating subtle uses of electronic instrumentation and post-production

wtf does "post-production" mean in terms of making a record? I think what you mean is "production."

post-modern

I'm not sure perfect & flawless and fresh & spontaneous (or alive, I might say) are possible to combine - I can't think of many who manage it, and certainly not in a mainstream context. Notwist, as I've said before, might get close for me, but they're a little minor concern indie band.

Also, U2 are just (generally, and definitely currently, although not always) just really really really fucking horrible.

"post-performance" is what Louis means I think.

deej, here is my controversial opinion on Radiohead's "influence":

If you look at where rock music went after Radiohead saturated the American music scene, you start seeing previously-quirky bands popping up as mass-market hits (The Flaming Lips, Modest Mouse) along with a bunch of newer quirkier-acts getting commercial props (Death Cab For Cutie, Fall Out Boy, Panic! At The Disco). I think you can directly or indirectly tie all of these back to Radiohead bending what people would accept on their radios from a rock band (despite their radio play falling off dramatically after OK Computer).

Dud.

Just completely humorless. I can't stomach it.

was gonna say about U2, I really fucking hate them

What did Radiohead create? They projected this haunted, exquisitely soulful (but somehow debased and defeated) humanity onto/into the mechanical apparatus of their superslick arena rock. At the same time, they dragged in a universe of textures and a way of experiencing sonic texture as an aspect of pop music that clearly owed something to electronic music (and also to pop-prog in the vein of later Pink Floyd). Separated from one another, these things might not be remarkable, but they fused the two elements – delicate injury and music as a primarily textural experience – in a may that made them seem like one thing. Humanity is a ghost in Radiohead’s music, but it’s an incredibly rich, lush and tangible non-presence. Their electronic interpolations aren’t there for contrast, but to highlight and illustrate the terribly fragility of the human. This theme, the essential failed-ness of the human, an almost sickeningly sentimental embrace of the remains of the human, like a baby cradled in the wake of a terrible blow, is present at every level in their music. The point to my mind isn’t that they went all electronic-y or proggy or something, but that they made these things part of how their music addressed and embodied the human experience. And it’s not like they invented the endearing qualities of being a tiny flesh-blob smushed inside the apparatus-world, but they gave those qualities a LOUD and unique pop voice, a voice that’s so strong and so intrinsically right that it now seems inseperable from the experience it conveys, perhaps even from the experience of (post) modern life.

There are many, many great passages in Kill Your Friends by John Niven (American Psycho transposed to London music A&R in 1997) where the narrator goes on about having heard Radiohead's new record and how it's "unlistenable, unmarketable prog shit".

If you look at where rock music went after Radiohead saturated the American music scene, you start seeing previously-quirky bands popping up as mass-market hits (The Flaming Lips, Modest Mouse) along with a bunch of newer quirkier-acts getting commercial props (Death Cab For Cutie, Fall Out Boy, Panic! At The Disco). I think you can directly or indirectly tie all of these back to Radiohead bending what people would accept on their radios from a rock band (despite their radio play falling off dramatically after OK Computer).

-- HI DERE

Jesus fucking do you realize christ, I mean.

None of the quirkiness of Death Cab or Flips or whoever is really much AT ALL compared to such big 60s radio hits as Good Vibrations or, god, any Beatles song post-1965. Radiohead might have made it OK to play Flips on the radio or something but that ought not to have a been a big deal.

Yeah, because one thing that current rock stations are playing to death right now is "Good Vibrations".

Also lots of hip hop and chart music still being fucking mad radical and bonkers and only purist whiteboy indieguitarfuXXors being nasty little conservative meat&potato little shits by comparison.

contenderizers long post is making me totally change my mind, stop that.

I'm not talking about right now, Dan, 1997 isn't right now either, but... Karma Police vs Missy Elliott.

me too, i'm selling my radiohead cds now xpost

Contenderizer's post is nice and good and all but at the end of the day I'm not going to feel Radiohead the way he does. Cop Shoot Cop vs The Tourist; I know what blew my mind more in 97.

I was just joking'!

I'm not talking about right now, Dan, 1997 isn't right now either, but... Karma Police vs Missy Elliott.

... I kind of don't see how that changes my point at all (namely who cares if "Good Vibrations" was more radical for its day when its day was 30 years prior to what was happening when OK Computer came out and therefore under even more of the hindsight pooh-poohing than OC is now).