Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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― Dom Passantino, Monday, 14 May 2007 13:41 (nineteen years ago)

jess this is ilm, i'm not going to put the same effort into it as into, you know, actual writing

― lex pretend, Monday, 14 May 2007 13:41 (nineteen years ago)

unless you want to pay me of course

― lex pretend, Monday, 14 May 2007 13:42 (nineteen years ago)

i dunno guys, i think shes at the age where a little drink driving could really help her profile

im not sure racism is a good look for hilary just yet, but in a couple of years, she could try see if she could pull that off?

― 696, Monday, 14 May 2007 13:42 (nineteen years ago)

xpost

of course! but don't expect me to "seriously engage" with the critical equivalent of text message mash notes in that case.

― strongohulkington, Monday, 14 May 2007 13:43 (nineteen years ago)

i feel like the people i've watched waste precious minutes of their life trying to get Geir to make sense.

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 13:43 (nineteen years ago)

(the math and beat of my heart are great singles btw, not sure about the more recent stuff)

― 696, Monday, 14 May 2007 13:44 (nineteen years ago)

that's what ilm is kind of based on

xps

― lex pretend, Monday, 14 May 2007 13:44 (nineteen years ago)

"i think Shellac at their best is maybe...the very best of the teenpop stars?"

Todd Trainer is foxy.

― David R., Monday, 14 May 2007 13:54 (nineteen years ago)

hilary's startin to look a little like atomizer-era albini come to think of it

― strongohulkington, Monday, 14 May 2007 13:55 (nineteen years ago)

I think I'll take songs from Dignity and Good Morning Revival and make an 11-13 song Rumours: The Next Generation. If only their labels did!

x-post sad but true

― da croupier, Monday, 14 May 2007 13:59 (nineteen years ago)

the lyrics to "jordan, minnesota" could probably do with posting on the rolling teenpop thread

― strongohulkington, Monday, 14 May 2007 14:02 (nineteen years ago)

Songs About Fucking: The Rolling 2007 Teenpop Thread

― David R., Monday, 14 May 2007 14:32 (nineteen years ago)

[i]when critics talk about "the sharpness of Lindsay's phrasing or the force of Ashlee's personality" they just sound deluded.[i]

I can only think of one person who said that, actually. (It was me.) How is this "deluded"? (I dunno about the "sharpness of Lindsay's phrasing" bit anyway, this was compared to Kara DioGuardi, who co-writes a lot of Lindsay/Ashlee/Hilary's songs, and her phrasing is much sharper. So I was wrong there...but I do think there's something about Lindsay's delivery that's more interesting than Kara's.)

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 14:34 (nineteen years ago)

Yahoo! Answers - Is Aly and Aj's new song about fornication?

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 14:35 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I'm not gonna defend Platinum Weird, believe me. That bit I quoted just always struck me as odd. Someone like Lohan is, to me, the epitome of a merely adequate (or "adequite") vocalist, someone whose songs might be occasionally good or great (I guess? "Over" was OK), but usually in spite of, not because of, her performances. Of course everyone has their own taste and a right to defend it, but it just seems like such a stretch to praise her or Ashlee when you don't have to look far to find a much more skilled vocalist like, say, Kelly Clarkson or even Pink, doing similiar material. I read lines like that and just feel like someone's been drinking deep from the well of ILM teenpop Kool-Aid.

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 14:54 (nineteen years ago)

No way, you should listen to her performance on "I Live for the Day," which is pretty much hands-down her best song. I can imagine Kara singing that song and sounding...uh, "sharp," but not getting that sort of desperate (desperite) tone that Lindsay gets. (And Lindsay's more playful on her first album than Kara usually is, too, but I still wouldn't use the word sharp.)

Also, Kelly Clarkson and Pink are both more "skilled" than Ashlee if you mean divas/powerhouse voice, but the powerhouse failed Pink with, e.g., Dr. Luke where Paris (whose voice is the antithesis of powerhouse) succeeded, and Kelly and Ashlee are about on the same level of emotional resonance (not hyperbole/baiting-talk) but I prefer Ashlee, partly because she doesn't have a diva voice to fall back on. Although I do think that a lot of critics greatly underestimate how good her voice is because of the various fiascos and the underlying assumption that she was autotuned (or something), which isn't really a problem with Kelly.

(I was drinking deep from the well of teenpop Kool-Aid before it came to ILM. But that's interesting...is there a perception that "ILM teenpop" is a pass-the-Kool-Aid deal? I always assumed it was generally seen as Frank Kogan's blog + spillover genre thread shenanigans + lone loonies chiming in about the Radio Disney playlist + a million "cryptic" tangents about Issues in Pop)

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 15:04 (nineteen years ago)

I will say this, Lohan's phrasing is sharper when she's singing than when she's reading dialogue, but that's faint praise. I haven't heard any deep cuts, though, so I'll reserve judgement on all her music and the song you singled out. As I said before, "it's not like I expect every pop singer to be a powerhouse vocalist," and I love a lot of music by people who are not great singers in the traditional sense, some of it even vocal-centered pop. But this almost strikes me as a matter of how able (or willing) someone is to like a song without feeling the need to love or defend every single thing about it. I can love a song unreservedly while still acknowledging that it's mainly the bassline or the bridge or a vocal tic that does it for me, whereas I don't see someone like The Lex as capable of anything in between despising a song or loving it to bits and praising every little part of it as genius. "Nothing In This World" is a fine song, and Paris's vocal suits it well, any vocal limitations she has don't hinder it and she does exactly what the song needs, no more, no less. But I can say that without deciding she's absolutely brilliant, or giving all the credit to the songwriter/producer to cop out on liking a Paris Hilton song.

And again, it's all relative, but I wouldn't call "U + Ur Hand" a failure at all, even aside from its current chart triumph.

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 15:19 (nineteen years ago)

Also, you or Kogan or whoever may be a leader rather than a follower in the whole overanalyzing-teenpop-craze, or you might be lone iconoclasts who just happen to be writing/posting in the same places as likeminded individuals, but from the perspective of a fairly sympathetic outsider (despite my name, I am not going to go all Alex in NYC and denounce all of it as flaming pablum), yeah, it does look like a bunch of Kool-Aid drinking to me, a possibly worthwhile school of thought taken to completely hysterical extremes.

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 15:36 (nineteen years ago)

how able (or willing) someone is to like a song without feeling the need to love or defend every single thing about it

But a lot of these songs (and one thing that's great about them) is how you deal with warts-and-all baggage, or, maybe more importantly, start wondering why the "warts" should be warts in the first place (e.g., "copping out on liking a Paris Hilton song" -- but I won't go into that). With Lindsay, there's literal/figurative baggage in a song like "Confessions" (not one of her best songs, but not a bad song) like her tabloid history, her presumed audience, manipulative over-the-top video, etc. etc. that makes it more interesting to try to get a handle on as a whole (in terms of an instinctual like/dislike/is-it-any-good reaction) than, say, "Sweet Escape" (using a totally random example). Or compare what it means to like a Fergie song to liking a Gwen or P!nk song (both of whom Fergie out-did in her own way on her last album).

So one thing I like about the teenpop thread is that it's somewhere to go to challenge who/what's relevant/important and why -- not that there aren't biases and assumptions there, too, but that they tend to be unusual ones, and usually nothing's set in stone and could be uprooted or invalidated in the course of an argument (or not -- I still hate Avril pretty much instinctively, but I also know I'm right so that makes a difference).

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 15:40 (nineteen years ago)

Well...is this really a "craze"? You've mentioned me and Frank individually (and the Lex upthread)...but that only leaves a handful of people who even post there occasionally. A few of them are part of the poptimists community, which is probably what led them there in the first place, and most of the rest are already established posters on ILM. So who/what is hysterical, if it's not the people you've already mentioned (and if it is, how are we hysterical)? (And just to be clear, I don't mean to sound antagonistic and I'm not asking you to name names or anything, I'm just curious as to what constitutes "hysteria" or "Kool-Aid drinking.")

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

But a lot of these songs (and one thing that's great about them) is how you deal with warts-and-all baggage, or, maybe more importantly, start wondering why the "warts" should be warts in the first place (e.g., "copping out on liking a Paris Hilton song" -- but I won't go into that).

But see, this is where I get a condescending attitude about this stuff, not necessarily from you right here but in general -- a combination of "oh, you're just getting hung up on your superficial opinion of Paris/Lindsay/Ashlee's personal life, you're not really listening to the music," but with the added and possibly contradictory twist of "but the tabloid controversies actually add context and emotional resonance to their songs!" I get it, I do, with pop music the performer's whole life and persona are part of the package. Maybe it's just that I've never been a big fan of superstars whining about fame in song. With someone like Lohan, it's kind of worse, because she was famous well before she even released a single, so "Rumors" was the kind of whiny, self-serving meta that Britney didn't start doing until maybe her 3rd or 4th album. It's like her career started with all the self-consciousness and paranoia that Michael Jackson needed a couple decades in the spotlight to develop. It's all very interesting I guess, but I don't think it makes that kind of music inherently worthwhile.

(xpost - I think any thread that reaches posts in the quadruple digits qualifies as a craze/phenomenon, at least in ILM's little fishbowl, whether it's a thousand people posting once or five people posting 200 times)

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:11 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, the fact there is a "poptimists community" to speak of suggests that there is a craze, or at least a trend of some sort, going on.

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:14 (nineteen years ago)

The Poptimists community doesn't talk about teen pop as much Alex - I started it mostly as a way to consolidate a load of LJ talk about music into one place, and called it Poptimists so as to cross-sell the Poptimism club night.

― Groke, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:24 (nineteen years ago)

whereas I don't see someone like The Lex as capable of anything in between despising a song or loving it to bits and praising every little part of it as genius

this kind of thing just makes me think you only read a tiny handful of the things i ever post on ilm, let alone write properly about

it does look like a bunch of Kool-Aid drinking to me, a possibly worthwhile school of thought taken to completely hysterical extremes

and this kind of thing makes me think you don't actually read the teenpop thread, where i've seen a good proportion of umm-ing, ahh-ing and flat-out dissing of various sub-par teenpop efforts (or even irrational hates like dave and avril). it doesn't seem any more hysterical than any other rolling genre thread, though obv there's a fair amount of boosterism when teenpop advocates post outside it, but for some reason it seems that more people have issues with the fact that it exists at all, in particular you.

With someone like Lohan, it's kind of worse, because she was famous well before she even released a single, so "Rumors" was the kind of whiny, self-serving meta that Britney didn't start doing until maybe her 3rd or 4th album

i love 'rumors' and yeah, maybe it is whiny, but the adjective i'd choose well before that is "immature": she doesn't sound justified, she does sound petulant, but i don't hold that against the song. liking 'rumors' doesn't mean that i think people should leave poor ickle lindsay alone - just that i think her petulance sells the song. the fact that it's more than a little tinged with paranoia is really effective (esp the lil' jon rmx!), it's like a really strung-out version of britney's 'overprotected'.

as for going overboard on paris, i think she made the second best album of last year! i think there's barely anything wrong with it, is it so hard for you to accept that i love it wholeheartedly? i mean it's what i have to accept every time i see hot chip or gnarls barkley in year-end lists, acts i like just fine but can't understand how people would love.

― lex pretend, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:26 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, it's possible I'm misreading the origins or intentions of "poptimism," mainly because usually when I see that word I feel nauseous and read no further. (xpost)

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:28 (nineteen years ago)

It's not hard for me to accept you loving the Paris Hilton record -- I'd rather listen to it (or at least the one single I liked) than fucking Hot Chip too. I think it's harder for you to accept that I or other people can not flat-out love the Paris Hilton record for any reason other than 'rockism' or disliking her as a public figure.

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:32 (nineteen years ago)

when you say things like "when I see that word [poptimism] I feel nauseous and read no further" it really is quite hard for me not to assume there's a massive element of kneejerk prejudice against pop, though.

and maybe this doesn't apply to you but you can't really deny that there are loads of people who would never, ever admit to liking the paris hilton album because of who she is!

― lex pretend, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

cmon the word poptimism is terrible

― 696, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:41 (nineteen years ago)

When I say poptimists community, I mean it literally, and I don't know if I'd draw a direct link btw Poptimists and 2007 Teenpop (there are lots of indirect links).

I understand your skepticism, but I think you're also to some extent misrepresenting what we've been saying about these artists (at least in your last post).

oh, you're just getting hung up on your superficial opinion of Paris/Lindsay/Ashlee's personal life, you're not really listening to the music

Often the opinions about the personal life etc. are superficial, but I'm not just saying that "you're not really listening to the music" (which is true sometimes). Usually the critics in question have technically listened to and then basically ignored critical judgment of the music (be it like or dislike, and with Paris it was about 50/50) in favor of arguing a larger point about the celeb -- and this is totally valid if it's what they want to argue. But they wind up arguing stupid points in a stupid way, saying things that reveal more about themselves and their social prejudices/hang-ups than they do about Paris or Ashlee or Lindsay -- as analysis of the celebs OR their music, it's completely unhelpful.

but the tabloid controversies actually add context and emotional resonance to their songs

I'm also not (necessarily) arguing this at all; sometimes tabloid context informs a song in how people hear it, but this doesn't always add emotional resonance. Ashlee's "Shadow" is more emotionally resonant when you know who she is (via tabloids) vs. who she wants to be...the line "don't feel sorry for me" is frustrating and kind of sad, because no one really does feel sorry for her, so you could say "don't worry, I won't feel sorry for you" or "what a pathetic thing to say" but probably not "wow, I guess I really shouldn't feel sorry for her, she's doing fine now." (And the rest of her songs are for the most part about how she's not fine, and sometimes I do feel sorry for her.) Here there's a real-life (as seen in tabloids) component that enriches it. But tabloid-baggage in and of itself isn't an enriching factor; "Rumors" is a good example of it essentially offering nothing (and it's a Lindsay song I don't particularly like). In Paris's "Jealousy" tabloid context is sort of moot -- knowing it's about Nicole Ritchie doesn't really add much to the song one way or another. Ditto knowing Kelly's "Never Again" is about the Evanescence guy.

Anyway, for the most part, teenpop is rarely celebrity-conscious (how could it be when so many of the artists are all but completely unknown) -- celebrity has usually been a fairly incidental aspect of the thread, actually, though it comes up occasionally. I think that celebrity-consciousness-pop was (1) never really that pervasisve, and limited to a very select handful of artists, almost all of whom are amazing btw (Britney, Ashlee, Lindsay, Paris tho rarely), (2) never itself that interesting, and always working in tandem with whatever was working within the song itself, and (3) never really that "whiny." And when it was a little whiny (like "Confessions," maybe), it was also pretty controversial and anomalous. (But anyone who thinks "Rumors" or Ashlee's "Boyfriend," for instance, took themselves that seriously is projecting something onto the songs -- they're fun!)

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

woops xposts

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, i dont really get the whole poptimist aesthetic either, and it might well be a kneejerk thing (for me), but i dont think its against pop music!

― 696, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:44 (nineteen years ago)

anyone who thinks "Rumors" or Ashlee's "Boyfriend," for instance, took themselves that seriously is projecting something onto the songs -- they're fun!

http://www.patheticgeekstories.com/images/beverage-Kool-Aid.jpg

i'll give you "Boyfriend," but you're reaching with "Rumors". Using the word "fun" in a lyric does not in and of itself make it a fun song.

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:48 (nineteen years ago)

B-b-but you're supposed to dance to it! In a club, even! Or at least in front of your mirror using a hairbrush as a microph--er, in front of your computer at work.

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:50 (nineteen years ago)

And if you could clarify what you mean by "Kool-Aid-drinking" before it becomes a mini-meme, that'd be good.

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

696 is right -- that's like calling pizza "pizzity-poo" and then saying I hate pizza when I point out that it's a stupid name.

(xpost -- just because something is categorically a "club song" doesn't make it fun. otherwise pop and rap radio in general would be great all the time, which it isn't. i was more scared off from the Paris Hilton album by the presence of Scott Storch, master of the deathly dull club song, than by Paris herself)

(and Kool-Aid was a meme well before this thread or even ILM)

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:55 (nineteen years ago)

Well, yeah, I meant in respect to the teenpop thread specifically. I'm just trying to get at what you mean by this, because I think it's interesting. (I'm aware of the X-Files episode this idea originated from, one of the weakest of the series.)

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:59 (nineteen years ago)

not the X-Files

― David R., Monday, 14 May 2007 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

(oh COME ON)

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

(I ain't assuming a damn thing on these threads)

― David R., Monday, 14 May 2007 17:07 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, it's just a euphemism for cultlike behavior (I think there are some connotations with Merry Pranksters/Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test there, too). The teenpop thing always seemed like a hivemind to me, not too different from a lot of other ILM hivemind behavior, with plenty of smart, free-thinking individuals involved but also toeing the line and promoting a certain ideology to some extent.

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

(</(FAILED)JOKE>, then)

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

Don't mean to keep prodding this along (oh wait, yes I do), but again, you've already mentioned by name about 40% of the people that even post there at all. There's no hive! If there are enough smart, free-thinking individuals to = "plenty," then it doesn't leave a lot of bees to choose from. (I don't know how the thread could even be coherent enough from day to day to even suggest an ideology, let alone actively promote one to anyone else.)

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:12 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, maybe my choice of words is just poor here and I'm implying a larger number of people and smaller range of opinions than there really is on the Teenpop thread. But I'm seeing at least a couple dozen different screennames posting multiple times on there, so maybe you're only talking about the core handful of people that post every day and I'm not. But I was never making a big to-do about counting exactly how many people post there (what I said before: "I think any thread that reaches posts in the quadruple digits qualifies as a craze/phenomenon, at least in ILM's little fishbowl, whether it's a thousand people posting once or five people posting 200 times"). I'm not saying it's a calculated movement taking over the world. But I think it might represent the new school of bad pop writing, where instead of ironic "guilty pleasure" hand-wringing, I see a lot of pious, worshipful enthusiasm like, I don't know, calling Lindsay Lohan's music "amazing" like you just did.

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:22 (nineteen years ago)

Stuff that makes the Rolling Teenpop Thread different from other threads, aside from the music it covers (from the POV of a sympathetic non-poster):

- Focus on the nitty-gritty of sales, airplay, performance, how popular stuff is. This is a good thing, because i. the popularity of pop music is part of what makes it pop music, ii. since very few people keep teenpop acts under contract because of prestige, so the popularity materially affects whether the acts get to make more of it.

- Frank Kogan sets the stylistic tone for the thread - chatty, lots of questioning, interrogation, qualifiers. Quite a few posters follow this tone (it's not quite as simple as 'wanting to write like Frank' though).

- It's a very NICE thread: no image bombing, no snarking, not many one-liner dismissals - quite a lot of one-liner praise though. This is unusual on ILM these days. Even the complaints about unsuccessful teenpop tend not to be put-downs.

Also in common with the other Rolling threads it's positive and upbeat and doesn't waste time explaining who people are to the non-initiate.

All of this gives it the Hivemind/cultish aura to outsiders, though I agree there's nothing in it so strong as an 'ideology' (unless "thinking Teenpop is worth talking about" counts).

― Groke, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:26 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, look at the rolling snap/rap thread - I'd say there's a pretty broad range of opinions and thought processes between me, ethan, deej, m@tt, etc., but I wouldn't be appalled if someone pointed out that there are certain pervasive biases and accepted wisdom that get reinforced there. that's how this shit works! (xpost)

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:27 (nineteen years ago)

But I call Lindsay Lohan's music amazing because I listen to her albums constantly and think they're amazing! (And have gone into more detail elsewhere about it, and don't feel like repeating myself every time I make a statement like "Lindsay Lohan's music is amazing," since this doesn't seem to be required for any other threads in the fishbowl.)

And I wouldn't call my calling her "amazing" "good or bad" pop writing. I think my analysis of "I Live for the Day" on the 2006 thread was good pop writing; that Platinum Weird review you cited was mediocre-not-terrible pop writing; but my good-to-mediocre ratio has improved since I started writing about Lindsay, and the music writing on the teenpop thread is better than the majority of what I read outside of the thread. And I wouldn't say that "pious" or "worshipful" enthusiasm even remotely describes the overall tone of the teenpop thread.

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:30 (nineteen years ago)

And I'm only appalled (not actually appalled) because I don't think you're really getting at what the biases and accepted wisdom really are. Here are a few: relatively little discussion about R&B, hip-hop, black artists in general, too much benefit of the doubt given to artists closest to the "core intended audience base" (i.e. Disneypop), not enough exploration of why Avril is so terrible and shouldn't be trusted (but that's MY personal bias). Oh, and not enough males being discussed, though the ratio has to be something like 10:1 as it is (the boys ain't bringin' it teenpopwise...Jonas Brothers get some consideration, I guess).

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:37 (nineteen years ago)

yeawh, sorry, i didn't mean to turn this into "you're a bad writer" stone-throwing, lord knows i'm in a glass house over here.

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:39 (nineteen years ago)

You can call me a bad writer all ya want (I'll give you a head start if you like), I'm more interested in where the bad pop writing from the teenpop thread is. What I'm arguing here is that the writing on the teenpop thread is BETTER than the majority of music writing I read anywhere else.

― dabug, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:41 (nineteen years ago)

Skipping 776 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

did people used to 'keystyle' on ilm?

-- deej, Thursday, 17 May 2007 15:34 (1 year ago) Bookmark Link

deej be all "Damn, I should have gotten here earlier"

― The stickman from the hilarious "xkcd" comics, Tuesday, 10 June 2008 15:09 (seventeen years ago)

you've revived this thread four times

― and what, Tuesday, 10 June 2008 15:11 (seventeen years ago)

I know, great innit?

― The stickman from the hilarious "xkcd" comics, Tuesday, 10 June 2008 15:15 (seventeen years ago)

Nah. It's kind of sad. Let go, man.

― Pashmina, Tuesday, 10 June 2008 15:24 (seventeen years ago)

one year passes...

soon to be an honorary edmonton oilerette !

― Daniel, Esq., Saturday, 20 February 2010 16:48 (sixteen years ago)

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