Why do people rag on Steely Dan's "Gaucho" so much?

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x-post I like "Gaucho" more than I like "Avalon," and don't listen to either very much in the scheme of things. I'm a big "Royal Scam" fan myself.

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Saturday, 11 June 2005 13:46 (twenty years ago)

I do think Aja is the masterpiece - lyrically so focused, and having a whole-cloth feel to it that I don't get from the pre-Aja ones. That said, I think my favorite is Countdown to Ecstasy, Aja's raucous twin: belligerent where Aja's cunning, openly brutal where Aja's covert. I know: "my favorite" vs. "the best" is a somewhat spurious distinction. But Aja does seem to me the most complete album, anyhow.

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Saturday, 11 June 2005 13:50 (twenty years ago)

the kubrick comment is very interesting. i immediately thought of eyes wide shut which in my opinion is the pinnacle of "superficially like the real world, but darker." i am still too much of a steely dan newbie to notice the similarities to kubrick beyond the superficial. ha. i always knew steely dan from growing up and going to parties of my mother's friends where their stuff was played constantly, but i never really connected with them until i started reading the copious ilm threads and thinking that i should really check them out again. over the past year or so i have slowly been picking up a random album of theirs when i go music shopping. haven't bought a dud yet...the one i listen to most lately is countdown to ecstasy. i don't have gaucho. the arrangement/production of their songs just kills me.

― tricky (disco stu), Saturday, 11 June 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

also, ilm threads on steely dan are almost always good.

― tricky (disco stu), Saturday, 11 June 2005 13:54 (twenty years ago)

The Kubrick comparisons are indeed apt. Just like I fall asleep during Kubrick's post-"Dr Strangelove" films, my attention starts to wander halfway thru Aja's title track.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 11 June 2005 13:58 (twenty years ago)

how can music "look like the real world"? this is a real question.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 11 June 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

I consider "Nightfly" better than anything Steely Dan did. That is where Fagen definitely managed to get close to his perfect pop vision.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 11 June 2005 20:54 (twenty years ago)

People rag on Gaucho because a shitty, soulless band made it.

(There had to be some dissent here...)

― Deric W. Haircare (Deric W. Haircare), Saturday, 11 June 2005 22:00 (twenty years ago)

Geir's provided the best example of dissent. Besides, I rather love Steely Dan for their soulessness; it's what they wrote about and to whcih they eventually yielded.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 11 June 2005 22:05 (twenty years ago)

interesting nad OTM on the david lynch (which i somehow missed earlier) comparison by Geir. i don't feel so much the kubrick thing - but don't know his stuff nearly as well

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Saturday, 11 June 2005 22:14 (twenty years ago)

Interesting. I've always heard Gaucho as the final installment of the change that began with the The Royal Scam -- kind of Steely Dan Mach II. Where Katy Lied sounds like a bow from the original, brighter, more collegiate Dan, using that famous knowing cynicism of theirs to flesh out devious character sketches, Royal Scam was where that cynicism replaced their inspiration -- tracks like "Green Earrings" and "The Fez", with their clavinets and Larry Carlton guitar solos, always were imbued with this seedy, overexposed 1970's soft-core-white-linen-porno-shot-in-Spain feel. True, you were never going to get a "Your Gold Teeth II" from these guys, but in a lot of ways, this is their most exciting record for me.

By contrast, I've never connected as much with Aja for some reason -- possibly because the great Roger Nichols didn't engineer it (and you can tell) or maybe because they continue down the Royal Scam road but try to humanize it with songs like "Deacon Blues". Either way it doesn't really work -- by this point, they're just too hardened and SoCal'd out to pull it off.

Gaucho is just sort of the culmination of what started with Scam -- the soundtrack to hitting on the chick who works at the bank at the local Ramada bar. Yes, all the love has gone out of it -- every character's a total piece of shit, and relationships are all transactions of some kind. Yet it's also perfect in its way -- the singles are career highlights, sure. But at its core are "The Glamour Profession" and "Gaucho", with their soaring Tom Scott saxes and lyricons, brittle guitar parts and more than a touch of Broadway in the vocals and song construction. And then it all ends, yeah, on "Third World Man", which is just disturbing, slow and vague. It's hard to feel "satisfied" by it all, but an appropriate note to go out on for sure.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Sunday, 12 June 2005 04:11 (twenty years ago)

Is there a decent book about Steely Dan in print right now? They're one of my favorite bands but I know next to nothing about them.

― retort pouch (retort pouch), Sunday, 12 June 2005 04:50 (twenty years ago)

interesting nad OTM on the david lynch (which i somehow missed earlier) comparison by Geir. i don't feel so much the kubrick thing - but don't know his stuff nearly as well

gahhhhh

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Sunday, 12 June 2005 04:58 (twenty years ago)

What is the meaning of "Third World Man" (i.e., why is it disturbing)?

― Joe (Joe), Sunday, 12 June 2005 12:35 (twenty years ago)

Third World Man is about a survivalist guy who creates some disturbance in his neighborhood, I think

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Sunday, 12 June 2005 12:40 (twenty years ago)

(and it's disturbing because the mood of the song emphasises what it's like to both be that guy & to be on the receiving end of his blow-up)

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Sunday, 12 June 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

I like the Kubrick comparison even though I like SD much much more than I like Kubrick. But what I don't like about Kubrick is closely related to what I don't like about Aja and The Nightfly . I like Gaucho much more than either of these, although not as much as some of the earlier albums.

― frankiemachine, Sunday, 12 June 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)

sorry Gear.

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 12 June 2005 19:40 (twenty years ago)

I think "Gaucho" is the weakest of the original albums, I can't seem to work up much enthusiasm one way or the other about their recent stuff. But for a perfect album that is a bit boring, it beats anything else in that vein I could name, certainly better than Joni Mitchell's similar jazz crap--although I would've liked to have heard Pastorius on some Steely Dan, he makes some of that Joni stuff listenable. "Off Night Back Street," not much of a song but a cool record. I really think the same about "Gaucho," I dunno about the songs, but it's a good-sounding record and I think it pleased them to make something like that. Anyway, I think the best thing they did since their second album is "Josie."

― edd s hurt (ddduncan), Sunday, 12 June 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)

THIRD WORLD MAN

Johnny's playroom
Is a bunker filled with sand
He's become a third world man

Smoky Sunday
He's been mobilized since dawn
Now he's crouching on the lawn
He's a third world man

Soon you'll throw down your disguise
We'll see behind those bright eyes
By and by
When the sidewalks are safe
For the little guy

I saw the fireworks
I believed that I was dreaming
Till the neighbors came out screaming
He's a third world man

Soon you'll throw down your disguise
We'll see behind those bright eyes
By and by
When the sidewalks are safe
For the little guys

When he's crying out
I just sing that Ghana Rondo
E l'era del terzo mondo
He's a third world man

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Sunday, 12 June 2005 20:17 (twenty years ago)

"But a perfect album that is a bit boring, it beats anything else in that vein I could name"

OTMFM - about 'Aja,' that is.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 12 June 2005 21:24 (twenty years ago)

Given all the criticism this record has taken, this might be a good place to note that Two Against Nature is tuneless shit.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

You should have jumped on the "Back To The Egg" thread, Matthew!

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 13:16 (twenty years ago)

Your wish is...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 13:38 (twenty years ago)

I agree with the above posters re: Gaucho being the weakest of the original albums. And it does sound like they are worn-out and just plain sick of the process of making records.

Gaucho was the record where Fagen and sound engineer Roger Nichols wrestled endlessly with the drum machine that Nichols had developed. The strain between Fagen and Becker was starting to show, as well.

Despite all that, Gaucho has Babylon Sisters, one of the most harmonically advanced pop songs I can think of. And it gets stuck in your head! Must hear now...

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

I'm with Al in that it's probably my least favorite of the original seven. But the singles are among their best and the title track is my current favorite SD song.

― Will(iam), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:01 (twenty years ago)

Gaucho: better than Royal Scam & Pretzel Logic any day

there, I said it

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:19 (twenty years ago)

: o

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:29 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but what about Two Against Fucking Nature, people!?!?

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:35 (twenty years ago)

I don't mind Two Against Nature. It's not as tuneful as Mach 1 SD, and it sorta has that harsh digital sheen - it's too perfect.
But some of the songs stand out. I like Cousin Dupree. It's certainly a step down.

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:41 (twenty years ago)

Two Against Nature isn't that great, but I think Everything Must Go has some really exceptional moments.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:46 (twenty years ago)

It's not as tuneful as Mach 1 SD, and it sorta has that harsh digital sheen

OTM. I bought it when it came out and have tried to get into it about 15 times — and aside from the lecherous "Who has a friend named Melanie?/Who's not afraid to try new things?" couplet in "Janie Runaway" and a little bit of "West of Hollywood", absolutely nothing has stuck with me. It's actually hard to listen to...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 16:53 (twenty years ago)

Everything Must Go is pretty awesome, especially the title track - I like 2vN too, if Fagen's writing the songs then I'm a happy man

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 17:37 (twenty years ago)

i think its an awkward album b/c its largely about them being awkwardly and ugily old - openly desperate and fairly unsubtle in general. i don't think those themes worked with their usual approach b/c stuff of the past was depressed/creepy/about being fucked, but glamourously and measuredly so. i think they had one foot in that door trying to make it artful, and another in the oh fuck it door. i haven't heard everythign must go but i can see 2 Against being kinda a segueway into something good. (i know i'm the worst album reviewer on ilm, but i just don't care)

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

nah, i like yr stuff, susan.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:11 (twenty years ago)

thx man

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

I was always skeptical of the fact that Gaucho was considered markedly worse in the discography reviews I read since the best songs on the hits comp, the 1st Dan I heard, were from Gaucho. The title track remains my favorite Steely Dan song, despite how much the arrangement reminds me of a telelvision sitcom theme.

― theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:27 (twenty years ago)

I bought this on used vinyl but I still haven't listened to it all the way through. Usually I just put on "Hey Nineteen". But for that alone: classic.

― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

The title track remains my favorite Steely Dan song, despite how much the arrangement reminds me of a telelvision sitcom theme.

You can thank Keith Jarrett for that.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:43 (twenty years ago)

i like your posts a lot too, susan.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 21:44 (twenty years ago)

Is that 'Tusk' (album) snare decay on the intro of "Time Out of Mind"?

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Thursday, 16 June 2005 06:19 (twenty years ago)

I mean cymbals.

Is it "What Makes You Think You're the One" that I'm thinking of? The smashes right at the end of the song?

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Thursday, 16 June 2005 06:24 (twenty years ago)

Also, "TOOM" is no "Any Major Dude Will Tell You," but it's still *heartbreaking*.

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Thursday, 16 June 2005 06:24 (twenty years ago)

one month passes...

"opening with and economic crash and closing with a smacked-out rumination about succor, betrayal, and Vietnam..." and then the review goes nowhere.

That's a review of Katy Lied, not Gaucho. And it does go somewhere, to this insightful place: "The music lets us know that their cynicism is no more a celebration of cynicism than their smack references are a celebration of smack, lets us know we can break the habit."

Gaucho is pretty devastating, actually. It's their most bitter album. I like that about it, but then again, I'm not entirely healthy.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:51 (twenty years ago)

This line fron Christgau confuses me:

Though not as lively as "Chain Lightning" or "King of the World," from back when they masqueraded as a rock and roll band rather than a "sophisticated pop/jazz group."

Masqueraded? What did they ever masquerade as? That's huge, fat bullshit.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:58 (twenty years ago)

five months pass...

Finally bought the album and the much-vaunted "Third World Man" - was surprised by how moving the latter was. Dessicated, reeking of tequila, cheap incense, and cigarettes....what a way to close this part of their careers.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 02:21 (twenty years ago)

Everytime this thread gets revived, I pull out this album on iTunes.

My father actually dated a nineteen-year old in 1980. She took my sister and I horseback riding. Weird to think that she'd be 45 this year.

― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 04:50 (twenty years ago)

i just bought this album on saturday. was listening it in the car 5 minutes ago.

does anyone have the unreleased version of it? the mp3s aren't on this site anymore but the story seems interesting.
http://www.bigomagazine.com/archive/ARrarities/ARsdgaucho.html

― jaxon (jaxon), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 06:54 (twenty years ago)

i have some of those. yeah, they're good.

― 2 columbus circle in 1964 (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 07:03 (twenty years ago)

This album more than any other built up an image in my head of LA's seedy side long before I moved here. It's nice to listen to on a late night drive home.

― camandas (camandas), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 08:25 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 132 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

new Mulaney Steely Dan bit just dropped pic.twitter.com/gV1dDAhu44
— Good Steely Dan Takes (@baddantakes) December 11, 2024

― bratwurst autumn (Eazy), Wednesday, 11 December 2024 17:15 (one year ago)

my baby loves "daddy don't live in that new york city no more." idk why you would try to play gaucho for a baby!

― now TAYNE i can get into (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 11 December 2024 17:55 (one year ago)

Ahahahaha that story

Also he should have played “Peg” or “Kid Charlemagne”

― DJP, Wednesday, 11 December 2024 18:14 (one year ago)

Has Mulaney been working out or something? He looks more like a Dude than he used to.

― Cow_Art, Wednesday, 11 December 2024 18:51 (one year ago)

He got a chin implant recently (discussed over in the SNL thread), plus I imagine between sobriety and locking down Olivia Munn he has incentive towards being fit.

― Okay, heteros are cutting edge this year, too. (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 11 December 2024 18:57 (one year ago)

one year passes...

The perfect parody doesn't ex....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnvXJRDdaT4

― whimsical skeedaddler (Moodles), Thursday, 7 May 2026 05:02 (one month ago)

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