richard hell takes apart poor journalist

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Makes as much sense as "pomo laughter."

"My laughter is a pastiche of all modernist laughter."

sunburned and snowblind (kenan), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 16:56 (nineteen years ago) link

what's so unclear about that?

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 16:57 (nineteen years ago) link

Do not dismiss laughter until you have laughed...

mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 16:57 (nineteen years ago) link

OTM sunburned. Any subject takes a risk when he consents to being interviewed, but the reporter/critic must be honest about any objections. If the reporter had told Hell at the beginning, "Your poetry isn't as good as your music," it would have set the tone for an objective and merciless interrogation.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 16:58 (nineteen years ago) link

exactly: here is my pastiche of all modernist laughter WHERE'S YOURS!!

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 16:59 (nineteen years ago) link

(yeah, that Eggers thing is the one I was talking about)

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 17:18 (nineteen years ago) link

Hell should do these kind of commentaries on some of Pitchfork's album reviews every day of the week.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 17:55 (nineteen years ago) link

Richard Hell to Tuning Fork, GO.

Xii (Xii), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 18:36 (nineteen years ago) link

i think they are both being unreasonable, but hell less so

geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 18:42 (nineteen years ago) link

I can't get "Let's Submerge" out of my head.

Ken L (Ken L), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 18:56 (nineteen years ago) link

If you go to Richard's web site, you can read the first chapter of the novel.

Ken L (Ken L), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 19:10 (nineteen years ago) link

The Eggar's thing doesn't seem so big a deal to me. Neither does the intro of this Hell piece. Looking for reasons to hate?

Eleventy-Twelve (Eleventy-Twelve), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 21:37 (nineteen years ago) link

I say yes, and Wayne Coyne says yes, and if that makes us the enemy, then good, good, good. We are evil people because we want to live and do things. We are on the wrong side because we should be home, calculating which move would be the least damaging to our downtown reputations. But I say yes because I am curious. I want to see things. I say yes when my high school friend tells me to come out because he's hanging with Puffy.

That whole paragraph is my reason to hate.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 22:25 (nineteen years ago) link

That whole paragraph is my reason to hate.

Why? Is it that you don't like how it treats criticism as mere negativity to be shunned?

Eleventy-Twelve (Eleventy-Twelve), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 22:30 (nineteen years ago) link

Am I the only one who thinks Hell's complaints here are niggling and self-absorbed? If someone writes something that expresses an opinion about your work -- i.e., you get press -- I think it's near-reprehensible to tell him he's a "callow kid" without the "right" to that opinion.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 22:38 (nineteen years ago) link

No, you're not. I read his comments like he's talking to his own 21-year old self. Tried to say so up-thread but nobody agreed.

the gotterdammerung, Tuesday, 8 March 2005 22:51 (nineteen years ago) link

Picking through the original intro, it does seem poorly written and patronizing of its subject, but hey, what isn't? All the points RH makes are valid, but I don't know if the 21 year old kid deserves such a lambasting. Has anyone else taken the cheap shot yet of saying: if only he applied his keen analytical mind to editing his own work?

Ken L (Ken L), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 23:01 (nineteen years ago) link

"poorly written and patronizing of its subject"
Yeah, but who cares. Why should Mr. Blank Generation, who I bet was pretentious as fuck as a kid, hanging out with people who adopted for surnames French symbolist poet's, act like a dick to some rock critic kid? I love how slippery punk is. Don't be a dick like everyone else, except when you're being a dick. Fuck you, Dick Hell.

thegotterdammerung, Tuesday, 8 March 2005 23:07 (nineteen years ago) link

Bravo to this guy for printing the whole thing. Most people would be afraid to do that.

Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 23:58 (nineteen years ago) link

"poorly written and patronizing of its subject"
Yeah, but who cares.

I thought that's what I was trying to say- further along in the same same sentence even, and if fact in almost the same wording as the reply. But maybe this is one of those threads where whatever one types is bound to be misinterpreted. And so it goes, to quote the producer of "The Kid With The Replaceable Head."

Ken L (Ken L), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 00:14 (nineteen years ago) link

I was mostly agreeing with you Ken!

thegotterdammerung, Wednesday, 9 March 2005 00:25 (nineteen years ago) link

Why should Mr. Blank Generation, who I bet was pretentious as fuck as a kid, hanging out with people who adopted for surnames French symbolist poet's, act like a dick to some rock critic kid?

Cause "the kid" sent it to him for approval or something?

dan. (dan.), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 01:14 (nineteen years ago) link

haha "was" "as a kid" HE STILL CALLS HIMSELF RICHARD "HELL" FOR CHRIST'S SAKE (sez the guy who leaves the space out from between his first and middle names ["Michael" and "Angelo," respectively])

I like this, too, for many reasons cited already, esp. Mark S's.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 01:39 (nineteen years ago) link

HE STILL CALLS HIMSELF RICHARD "HELL" FOR CHRIST'S SAKE

And why shouldn't he?

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 01:43 (nineteen years ago) link

Because: "l'enfer , c'est les autres."

Ken L (Ken L), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 01:49 (nineteen years ago) link

richard hell is a great name!

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 01:51 (nineteen years ago) link

Is it that you don't like how it treats criticism as mere negativity to be shunned?

You call that "shunning"? Writing a blistering, preening, epic email to some poor college kid? I call it massive insecurity combined with outsized self-importance, both of them rendered ridiculous by citation of the Flaming fucking Lips.

(sorry, not trying to hijack the thread. i'll take my eggers anger elsewhere.)

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 01:57 (nineteen years ago) link

haha that interview was the beginning of the end for eggers poor guy

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 01:59 (nineteen years ago) link

Didn't Hell do some liner notes to one of his ROIR comps maybe, parody oof rock writing, and sign it "Lester Meyers," Meyers being his birth-handle (so maybe it was partially a self-parody)

don, Wednesday, 9 March 2005 02:09 (nineteen years ago) link

he should call himself whatever he wants, the point is that someone is saying he "used to be pretentious," and I'm pointing out that the name is pretty pretentious now, too. it's a great name, obv., and "pretentious" doesn't have to be a pejorative.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 02:20 (nineteen years ago) link

Yeah I got your point. And pretentious is next to ambitious, ideally. Just wish he was still pretentious enough to make us some new records!

don, Wednesday, 9 March 2005 02:27 (nineteen years ago) link

I dug the way Hell was almost acting as the Ghost Of Christmas Future in a fucked up kind of way...I doubt he would have done that to the kid if there wasn't something in him he liked. He overreacted, sure, but it's a pretty memorable way to learn a lesson. But, all ruminations aside, i cringed for the kid. I don't think I'm alone when I say I recognised that "Hi I'm 21" introduction. It could've been my own!!

VegemiteGrrl (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 04:49 (nineteen years ago) link

I think Hell treated him with kid gloves, actually. Maybe Hell does come across as snide, but his points are all valid and the kid's tone is out of line (and not in any sort've "punk" way, either). Moreover, this has nothing to do with being a "Punk" (a term which probably makes Richard Hell gag these days) and more to do with being ambushed by a snot-nosed kid who was doing a hatchet-job on him.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 13:56 (nineteen years ago) link

ihttp://www.widerecords.com/no_flash/res_photo_gallery/jpg_big/richardhell.jpg

"Open up, kid, you got a significant cultural impact comin' to you!"

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 14:03 (nineteen years ago) link

I hate it when pics don't appear.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 14:04 (nineteen years ago) link

even as a "hatchet job" it is tepid and by-numbers and (i'd say) pointless

there are (arguably) harsh things a snot-nosed unearned-attitude kid might see and say that no one else ever had, but this is hohum-received-wisdom-pts-43654-9

and this still strikes me as more "tough love" than tantrum

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 14:12 (nineteen years ago) link

(sez the guy who leaves the space out from between his first and middle names ["Michael" and "Angelo," respectively])

aw, don't pull back the curtain, wiz!

Ant Honey Miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 15:15 (nineteen years ago) link

as for Hell, he may have been a little mean but I consider it to be a victimless crime.

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 15:15 (nineteen years ago) link

I laughed a lot at that. They make a great double act, a sort of punk rock Steptoe and Son.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 15:33 (nineteen years ago) link

(Translation for American readers: Sanford and Son.)

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 15:39 (nineteen years ago) link

"If Quincy Jones had not diverted so much of his energies to writing TV theme music, he would have been an even better producer."

Ken L (Ken L), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 16:17 (nineteen years ago) link

I'd like to see this kid do voiceover on the DVD release of Richard Hell's spectacular film Blank Generation.

i can take it or leave it, Wednesday, 9 March 2005 16:30 (nineteen years ago) link

This could be the beginning of a bewdyful friendship...

VegemiteGrrl (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 18:29 (nineteen years ago) link

totally classic.

roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 9 March 2005 18:56 (nineteen years ago) link

xpost Mark:"tough love," yeah; reminds me that Richard Hell/"Lester Meyers" was buds with Bangs, who had much tough love, among other things (And who also approvingly quoted his and Hell's compadre Ivan Julian, re "wrestling matches," with Lou Reed, for inst.)

don, Thursday, 10 March 2005 01:15 (nineteen years ago) link

Hell on Bangs in some commie/homosexual publication a while back.


It's gotten to where just the name does it: Lester Bangs. It makes me happy. It's like raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens. Of course, even apart from the guy it signified, its perfection of pure form is stunning, but what it evokes as the signifier of the person is even better. I think of his innocence and goodwill first, and his compulsion to talk about whatever was going on and to figure out what mattered (starting from music) and it makes me sorry I can't call him up. It's strange. I didn't even like him very much when he was alive. Just five or six years ago when his biographer was asking for stories about him I told him that when I knew Lester I didn't take him very seriously or pay very much attention to him. That though doubtless my distaste was partly that of the junkie for the lush, I mostly thought he was a buffoon. Lester was this big, swaying, cross-eyed, reeking drooler, smiling and smiling through his crummy stained mustache, trying to corner me with incessant babble somewhere in the dark at CBGB's, 1976 or so. He was sweet like a big clumsy puppy, but he was always drunk and the sincerity level was pretty near intolerable.
Now I miss him.

Of course it's easier to like a good-hearted, hardworking dead person, the extremely edited Lester, than the obliviously intrusive physically present one, but Lester has made way more friends than most since he died. Posthumously, he's become the noncharismatic Elvis of rock writers: obscene provocateur and polite mama's boy, vulnerable and egotistic, trashily prolific and artistically transcendent, anti-drug and full-time addict (who died young that way); but most of all forgiven everything and adored by his fans while being the most popular model for those who would essay his trade. Well maybe that's a little strained; probably Jack Kerouac would be a better comparison, if not as much fun. Because Kerouac actually did influence Bangs a lot and the appeal of Lester shares a lot with Kerouac: that innocence and goodwill and drive to describe and be true to what matters in life. People like a writer's writing because they like the writer's company. Writing is intimate and finally what draws you to an author's work is the shape of the mind and quality of feeling you find there, and Lester, like Kerouac, reads like a real good friend to a lot of people.

I have to interrupt and confess how I'm struggling to resist taking revenge on rock critics. I was a musician and I've thought a few times of rating the critics the way they do the artists. But I'm really really going to try to restrain myself. How petty would that be, if I were to go after them? Not only have they generally been real good to me but my life is more fun than theirs. I must try to be large I must try to be large. I don't want to be a jerk. I'll just say that I believe Lester deserves his supreme popularity (he liked me the most).

But I've got to go after the self-importance of the best-known worst of them a little. The rock writers, naturally, want to believe that their genre, like say the movie criticism of the Cahiers du Cinéma writers such as Godard and Rivette, is sometimes actually the work of important artists. In fact Greil Marcus, in the introduction to Bangs's previous collection of rock journalism, Psychotic Reactions and Carburetor Dung (1987), wrote, "Perhaps what this book demands from a reader is a willingness to accept that the best writer in America could write almost nothing but record reviews." (That line is typical of the way Marcus ruins good things by laying the burden of his pretentiousness on them.) And it's true that writers as good as Patti Smith and Nick Tosches wrote about pop music seriously, with full respect, and really well. But I don't see much justification for a line like Marcus's about Lester. Lester was lovable and perceptive, but the writing is wired thinking-aloud; it's pure process, and my feeling is that Lester had too many blind spots and neuroses for writing that depends so much for its value on the shapeliness of his mind and reasoning. As with Kerouac, you go to Bangs's work to be refreshed with your pleasure in the characteristic beauty of his mission and mind, to be reminded of the presence of a certain being that inspires and provokes. But it hardly matters what pages you read—all the appeal is in the tone and ethical/aesthetic values, and you get them immediately, so a little goes a long way.

Nevertheless, of all the most highly regarded rock journalists (say Tosches, Robert Christgau, Marcus, and the execrable and excremental Richard Meltzer) Lester was the only one who valued self-doubt and who actually seemed to like the music more than he liked himself. Lester was a critic who reserved the right to be wrong, which seems to me admirable. Like many rock writers Lester took extreme stances, but unlike the other most flamboyantly contrary of them, he didn't paint himself into a minuscule corner of supported music, and he didn't go sour with cynicism and resentment (or maybe he did a little toward the end—1982 for Lester—when punk seemed to end up genuinely, fatally, hopeless). Lester was large and he was interested in doing what was right—which sometimes entailed willfully offending those whose values he opposed—not merely being right in his taste and musical standards. He wanted to learn. What's appealing about him is the same thing that he valued in the music he wrote about: the life in it—engagement with and responsiveness to the world. To put a positive spin on the spew-and-rant factor, he didn’t care about beauty except as flow. He wanted everything included. He was confrontational but it came from goodwill, from his belief that feelings—sensitivity to what's going on—are what matter and that if you're going to really notice things, really perceive, there's going to be a lot of sadness and horror and filth as well, so to some extent they're a necessary part of beauty. Basically, Lester always wanted people to care more. That could be really tedious, but when the examples of things due more loving regard are such as White Light/White Heat and Raw Power and Pangaea, it gets interesting.

If you like Lester, you'll like this new book. It's a lot like the other one but it has more Miles Davis and Rolling Stones than Lou Reed and Iggy and some big chunks of autobiographical writings.

lovebug starski (lovebug starski), Thursday, 10 March 2005 01:21 (nineteen years ago) link

i really liked that. thx for posting lovebug starski.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 10 March 2005 01:43 (nineteen years ago) link

the execrable and excremental Richard Meltzer

Ah, Hell has just become a god for me.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 March 2005 01:45 (nineteen years ago) link

Thanks! Good to see that again. The initial patting Lester on the head, the various angles on rock crits (incl. recurrent streaks of malice),the overall glibness-to-eloquence, and the climatic love-rush, all indicate how he and LB were a good match, on the page, anyway.

don, Thursday, 10 March 2005 01:45 (nineteen years ago) link

Yeah, good post, LS. Was anyone else at that tribute to Lester Bangs at that arty church on 2nd Avenue and Ninth where everybody read something from Psychotic Reactions and Richard Hell chose to read a page from the index?

Ken L (Ken L), Thursday, 10 March 2005 01:52 (nineteen years ago) link

i'd like to note that Hell didn't like Meltzer at least partly because Meltzer didn't like Hell. (Unsure whose dislike came first.) Meltzer wrote in at least one essay if not more that one of Lester's unsupportable tenets was using Richard Hell as an example of anything positive. Sounded like a personal vendetta.

Meltzer's written plenty of crap over the years, but when he's on his game, he's as strong and thorough as any first-rate writer. Hell? I can't say. Blank Generation, the album, is a masterpiece. But I've never been inclined to read his prose. I might be missing something here. Am I?

My own extremely limited experience with both of them was completely cordial. I didn't ask them to share a room.

OCONDOR (Pt.1), Thursday, 21 May 2009 01:30 (fifteen years ago) link

A good complement to this one is Prindle's interview w/ Hell:

http://www.markprindle.com/hell-i.htm

Mark, Thursday, 21 May 2009 05:10 (fifteen years ago) link

Speaking of musicians taking apart poor journalists:

There's trainwrecks, there's horrible uncomfortable trainwrecks, and then there's Mark's interview with HR of Bad Brains. Awesome!

Mr. Snrub, Thursday, 21 May 2009 18:41 (fifteen years ago) link

the chapter Hell wrote in Rock & Roll Cagematch about the Stones vs. Velvets was pretty good.

Italics in Baltimore (some dude), Thursday, 21 May 2009 18:45 (fifteen years ago) link

three years pass...

Xgau on Hell's autobio, and Hell's whole thang---really rich:
http://bnreview.barnesandnoble.com/t5/Rock-Roll/Richard-Hell-The-Thrill-Seeking-Years/ba-p/10073

dow, Saturday, 16 March 2013 23:49 (eleven years ago) link

And speaking of rich, leave us not forget Hell on Bangs upthread: terrific!

dow, Saturday, 16 March 2013 23:52 (eleven years ago) link


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