To "rock fans", what is meant to be the canonical, everyone can agree on, album of the decade?

Emimen: Marshall Mathers LP
MIA: Kala
Kanye West: Late Registration

i honestly don't mean to appear dense, but who would consider these 'rock' albums? isn't this conflating pop and rock? i'm sure this has been discussed already but i can't be fucked to read everything here

A friend just mentioned The Glands album in one of those 15 albums that changed your life lists on Facebook today. Now Kornrulz6969. It's $4.99 at Reckless, just a block out of my way before I get to the train. It's a sign.

i'm okay with what korn is doing, but share k3vin's scepticism. i'd conceived of this as "what ROCK albums will make the rock canon?" that's a narrow way to frame it, but it does force us to draw weird (and potentially interesting) lines in the sand

korn's version is way more simple: "what albums will make the rock canon?" but maybe it's too broad, too simple? looked at on those terms, the list oughtta be FULL of hip-hop and stuff like daft punk & c. at which point it becomes just another generic "best of the decade" list

i like the narrow, rockist focus on "rock albums only!", in part because it gives us a chance to reconsider what that might mean -- (hopefully) without getting all gross about it

ITS GOING TO BE FUCKING KID A WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT SUNNO)))

cuz single ablum = estupido, and this is more challenging

glad to see Love & Theft get a nod; Modern Times is deserving as well.
the rockist elite will no doubt laugh at my Conor Oberst (s/t) obsession - he's a bloody visionary.
and Drive-by Truckers'-brighter than creations dark
and the wrens- meadowlands are VERY special, imo
Kid A is alright background music, but that's about all the time i have for it - it kinda bores me to sit and listen to; while the wrens on the other hand make me wanna curl up with the lyrics with headphones on

are you talking about waht you like, oar are you talking about TEH CANON?

guess i'm saying that in a perfect world dbt's would be agreed upon- i sure think that record is worthy

I'm not convinced about Kid A. First, I really have trouble thinking of it as a rock album (any more than the Eminem album is a rock album). And I just don't agree that Kid A has the kind of broad, unifying appeal that Whiney claims it to. I guess I'm basing that largely just on personal experience (even with 'rock listeners' who like the older Radiohead stuff). Maybe if there was more than one big single off it, I'd be more convinced. American Idiot seems reasonable and I see the case for Elephant, even Coldplay.

i stand by kid a (as one of the few, though not as THE ONE) largely on the strength of the radiohead art-myth. they've got every other band in the world beat at the "getting people to say our music is important" game. big part of canomization

The REAL album of the decade, rock or otherwise, is Quebec by Ween.

Wait, so nobody's mentioned Yankee Hotel Foxtrot yet? (Really though, I'd say the most sensible nomination on the thread is probably American Idiot. And I don't like that one, either.)

Return to Cookie Mountain?
Yankee Hotel Foxtrot?

Oh wait.. to "rock fans.."

In that case, no.. with extra "no" emphasis on the 2nd half of the decade.

― billstevejim, Monday, 16 February 2009 22:58 (3 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Return to Sucky Mountain?

Yankee Hotel Sucktrot?

― ilxor, Monday, 16 February 2009 23:55 (3 days ago) Bookmark

I really like YHF, fwiw.

Actually prefer Kid A to American Idiot as music, believe it or not. But one inevitable problem with Kid A -- not gonna read the whole thread to see if anybody's mentioned this; somebody probably did -- is that it will always be a followup album. And yeah, I like it more than OK Computer, too.) (American Idiot is only a followup album to Dookie if London Calling was a followup album to The Clash.)

Problem with White Stripes -- who I like more than Radiohead or Green Day, but who cares -- is that they have way too many '00s albums that people care about, so they'd split their votes.

plus kid a does so many other decade-defining things: mainstreams a distinctly "indie" sensibility (fragile, sentimental, childlike/ish, self-loathing, comfort-seeking), ignores boundaries between rock & pop & elecrowhatever, gets psychedelic as all hell, relentlessly futurist.

can't see many of the other records serving so well as a metaphor for and statement about the times. white stripes = too reactionary (in the proud tradition of garage rock). coldplay too watered down. american idiot's probably in the running, but i don't hear anything quite as game-changing in it.

The Glands album ....It's a sign.

Holy mackerel, you are in for a treat. Seriously, you have no idea. Get it and let me know what you think. It's completely retarded that nobody knows who they were. SO good.

Outdoor Miner seems to have my exact taste in music. Conor Oberst made the best record of 2008. And The Wrens Meadowlands is in my top 5 of the 2000s. But they'e too obscure to figure in any meaningful way on big end-of-decade lists. You should hear The Glands too.

I still don't consider the one on top a "rock" album, but otherwise:
http://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=2000s&genre_include=1&genres=rock&include_child_genres=t&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries=

A bit too much metal there (typical RYM). This is the same chart without child genres:
http://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=2000s&genre_include=1&genres=rock&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries=

And well.. Still not good. They should have had an opportunity to only include albums that have been rated by at least 1000 people.

I'm halfway through The Glands. It's like a dreamier Game Theory with some Kinks, nice so far.

I'm not convinced about Kid A. First, I really have trouble thinking of it as a rock album (any more than the Eminem album is a rock album). And I just don't agree that Kid A has the kind of broad, unifying appeal that Whiney claims it to. I guess I'm basing that largely just on personal experience (even with 'rock listeners' who like the older Radiohead stuff). Maybe if there was more than one big single off it, I'd be more convinced. American Idiot seems reasonable and I see the case for Elephant, even Coldplay.

― Sundar, Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:19 PM (2 hours ago)

come on.

leave me alone.. this question was stupid to begin with. the 00's contained far too many rock subgenres for "rock fans" to agree on anything. (probably xpost since this is a fairly obvious statement)

that said.. although it's not strictly a rock record, every last "rock fan" i know enjoys kid a.

TBH, I was thinking of The Eminem Show when I posted that.

This kind of blows my mind:

every last "rock fan" i know enjoys kid a.

Not even every mainstream rock critic enjoyed it!

attempt to come up with THEE answer to dom's question isn't worth the trouble. kid a is a good suggestion, that's all - something that probly oughtta be on the list somewhere. taking it much farther than that seems silly. i'm guessing that it'll be seen as one of the definitive new century records a few decades down the road, but that's just my shot in the dark

sundar OTM, though. i've known some rock pplz to sneer at radiohead/ kid a

Not even every mainstream rock critic enjoyed it!

I didn't say it was universally beloved..

dudes i do not know how many times i have to repeat this, but there is a huge backlash against kid a among average "rock dudes". the repeated DUH IT IS OBVIOUSLY KID A SHUT UP on this thread is either A) amusing trolling B) completely insane or C) people that imagine rock in a critical vacuum in which the titular "rock fans" aren't allowed to vote.

it is the radiohead album i like most, but the general rock dude public couldn't give a fuck about it, srsly.

Yes this is true.. Kid Rock, for example, stated his opinions about Kid A very loudly, which echoed what many fans of more "traditional" rock were feeling at the time.. but there are also people who dislike any band. There are lots people who hate The Beatles, who are probably the most beloved group ever. This is why the question is stupid.. there's no such thing as an album that "everyone can agree on.."

However...

Seven Nation Army is certainly the consensus rock song of the decade.

This is severely OTM.

jjj: i think you're being a little presumptive about the "general rock dude public". lazer radiohead @ the science center draws a lot of GRDs. and this isn't about what some universal rock stan hivemind thinks of this or that record, but how the 00s will be logged in the great rock canon of evermore. similar thing, but not exactly the same

dude all i do all day is sell guitars to the "general rock dude public" and i am telling you that the same dudes that voted OK computer as the best guitar album in the guitar world poll about guitar rock in the 90's thought that Kid A was a betrayal of ROCKNESS/ a pile of unlistenable techno shit.

john, (the titular) "canonical" =! what rock dads agree on.

'canon' implies some sort of critical consensus

guitar stores ppl is a significant slice of GRDP, but it aint the whole thing, not by a long shot. and the narrow-minded loudmouth jerk skew factor is CRAZY high. i mean, use a "cool" indie rock record store as the other end of the spectrum, stick a pin somewhere in the middle, and i think that's probably as fair a picture as yr. gonna get.

that said, i think it's a mistake to narrow the canon to critical consensus and nothing else. critics howling in a vacuum about stuff no one else cares about tend to be marginalized. critics are one element, super-die hard geeks (especially musicians) are another, and the general public is a third.

truth be told, i think the average rock listener dude thinks of "Kid A" as a misstep. and even i, who thinks it is a perfectly good album, dont really think of it in a "rock" context. it might be a top 50 of the decade contender for albums in general, but "the rock album of the decade"? no chance.

not rock enough is a valid objection, but i don't know how universal it is. to purists, sure. to less conservative types, not so much.

plus i still think yr narrowing GRDP down to too narrow a strawman. that dude exists, sure, but he isn't a fair picture of "rock fans" in general.

i mean, i think kid a and other, similar (and dissimilar) records have done a lot over the late 90s and 00s to broaden the definition of rock. maybe i'm wrong...

dude, using actual people that i talk to as an example is the exact opposite of strawmanning. calling it "what rock dads agree on." and "the narrow-minded loudmouth jerk skew factor" is straw man 101.

also i think the whole idea of broadening the definition of rock implies a certain bias towards the results you are looking for.

agreed taht "narrow-minded jerk loudmouth" was a cruel strawman. but i calls em as i sees em. if the people yr. talking about are super open-minded, gentle and thoughtful in how they construct and deconstruct "rock", lemme know. strawman i was objecting to is the reduction of rock fans to the guitar store crowd. that demo is a legit and often vocal subset of rock fans, but they are not by any means the whole deal.

not sure about that last point. looking at the 00s, completely independent of gaydioheads, i see a broadening and intermingling of scenes and sounds -- this becoming super apparent only in the last few years.

that's not an attempt to open the door for kid a, just an observation based on what seems to be going on

agreed taht "narrow-minded jerk loudmouth" was a cruel strawman. but i calls em as i sees em. if the people yr. talking about are super open-minded, gentle and thoughtful in how they construct and deconstruct "rock", lemme know.

you are still strawmanning though, creating a not open-minded, ungentle, unthoughtful group of people that are incapable of "deconstructing" rock that fail to see "Kid A" as a rock album. all i am saying is that i know lots of regular joe strawman style rock dudes that couldn't give a fuck about kid a, and i know a lot of music-critic big ear strawman dudes that think "Kid A" is shit hot awesome, but because it is a "important album" not an "important rock album".

I read two thirds of this thread and my eyes went blurry, so I say

Actually, I'd probably say "Hybrid Theory" by Linkin Park.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:09 AM

jjj: i admit the strawmanning, somewhat regretfully. but i've spent enough time in & around guitar stores to have opinions, as you do. i'm a way overcommitted rock geek, but guitar store dudes (this unfair generalization i've formed based on experiences & interactions, good & bad) aren't exactly my tribe. some are, some aren't, and i don't mean any of this personally. same goes music-critic big ear strawman dudes, though, yeah, i stray more in that direction.

that said, i realize i've said some dickish shit here, esp in that post you just quoted. regretted it as soon as i hit submit. i have this concept that NOT ALL but a fair contingent of guitar store dudes and guitar magazine voters are sort of proud to be somewhat narrow-minded in defense of rock. this may be bullshit, but it's this impression i've gathered. what i'm observing & describing has nothing to do with intelligence or capacity or any of that shit: it's a shared vision, an ethos. rock doesn't need to be "constructed or deconstructed". it just IS. shit either is or isn't rock. metalheads stray in this direction, too, and the metalhead/guitar store crossover is huge. or seems to be (again, my impression only)

in using non-rock language like "gentle and thoughful" i was kinda trying to poke wink-wink holes in my own strawman, for lols. guess that didn't come across.

lol louis and DJ, yeah i could sit here and post shit off like the first blind shake record and all this other obscure shit i like but they are not going to be canonized.

― Yo, I just copped dat brand new Manity Kane cd. (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:13 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i know what you did last nite...

mommy, how iz cannon formed?