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Yeah I think it's a partly-justified fear of making "big statement" music that prevents indie standard-bearers from doing this. One way to think about the Animal Collective's new album - which is probably the biggest big-statement indie album in a while and almost certainly will be the most successful critically this year - is that all of that impulse is poured into the music, and the lyrics are deliberately mundane and domestic by comparison (e.g. singing about taking yr daughter to school through the park).

This is separate but strongly related to the "quirkification"/"fear of earnestness" in mainstream music Lex refers to (I assume we're talking Mika etc.); in both cases, one issue at work is that bands/artists who are trying to stylise themselves as individual become suspicious of their capacity to pull off earnestness without coming on all Coldplay,

xp strange you should mention that, as a silver mount zion's last album fits the bill. it's more bitterly optimistic than angry though.

but certainly, "faded trend" would apply.

If anything, it's precisely the "pop"-tinged noise outfits that have something to offer here, insofar as the broader listening community simply haven't engaged with noise at all

i think "noise" has the potential to become the next "alternative," "indie" or "emo," in the sense of a somewhat vague modifier that sounds hip and could come to signify commercial music that doesn't have a lot to do with its original usage. you already see this in a lot of record reviews, people throwing around "noise" to mean all sorts of things, but i could easily see it making the leap to yr average 14-yr-old, with the right band to sell it. among other things, it's an adjective perfectly suited to irritate parents.

I would say though that the "politics" in a lot of those post-post-punk threads felt very ossified, as much a part of the genre-tradition as certain types of guitar-sounds and therefore no longer very meaningful-sounding.

Similarly, I don't need here to another nu-soul song about body-image and/or refuting the (visual) expectations of the mainstream. Or another post-Ani-DiFranco folk-punk singer proudly proclaiming his/her sexual ambiguity.

Such political interventions usually have traction at the beginning but if they're standard genre moves then that traction wears away.

xp: this has already begun, with fuck buttons.

This is separate but strongly related to the "quirkification"/"fear of earnestness" in mainstream music Lex refers to (I assume we're talking Mika etc.)

not even just mainstream music - mika certainly fits though, as does pretty much every artist in IT'S THE FUTURE, IT'S THE FUTURE: BBC Sound of 2009 'Longlist' Poll

it's wider than that though...it's stuff like juno opting for quirkiness over emotion at, like, every single juncture, and wes anderson's entire career - self-conscious cleverness, quirkiness and metatext is the dominant mode of expression in indie/pop culture right now, and it's not terribly conducive to big political statements.

one issue at work is that bands/artists who are trying to stylise themselves as individual become suspicious of their capacity to pull off earnestness without coming on all Coldplay

yeah, but you don't have to go back very far to find a huge amount of critical interest & popular/scene support for earnest feminist artists/bands like le tigre & sleater kinney. post riot grrrl stuff. and less earnest but equally political stuff like peaches, chicks on speed, punky lo-budget electroclash in general. have those veins dried up too?

also parts & labor for the not-so-noisy "noise" thing. but then again, they're a good example of a contemporary band with a strong political stance/identity.

^ remainder of the former = the gossip

One way to think about the Animal Collective's new album - which is probably the biggest big-statement indie album in a while and almost certainly will be the most successful critically this year - is that all of that impulse is poured into the music, and the lyrics are deliberately mundane and domestic by comparison (e.g. singing about taking yr daughter to school through the park).

How so, "biggest"? Most ambitious? Best? Most open-minded and musically-stunning? Or most adorable, most pleasantly-rendered?

Such lyrical content is a bit of a cop-out, I find, and you run the risk of explaining it away with a pat qualitative dichotomy, although I do accept that the lyrical content is kept simple so as not to work against the music. (Which is a deficiency in my book.)

The album itself I've heard once, and I didn't like it all that much. It had a little of the whole Deserter's Songs "spangles of bright colour draped on a clothesline" thing to it; the songs didn't transcend or transform for me, they merely throbbed, spun and dissolved.

I will give it more listens, though.

Re Peaches/electrohouse etc.:

Bigger issue probably is that the current equivalent of electrohouse is much more masculine than it was circa 2002. The audience is always there for that sort of thing but the stylistic configurations have to be right.

How so, "biggest"? Most ambitious? Best? Most open-minded and musically-stunning? Or most adorable, most pleasantly-rendered?

I meant biggest in terms of being an "event" in indie land, the commonly agreed upon "big statement" record of 2009. But that consensus derives, I think, from the big-soundingness of the record, something that that Mercury Rev record shared in many senses.

Such lyrical content is a bit of a cop-out, I find, and you run the risk of explaining it away with a pat qualitative dichotomy, although I do accept that the lyrical content is kept simple so as not to work against the music. (Which is a deficiency in my book.)

Actually i wasn't defending this, I was suggesting that this is the archetypal "pat dichotomy" that tends to typify the indie approach when it comes to making big statements circa 2009.

Bigger issue probably is that the current equivalent of electrohouse is much more masculine than it was circa 2000

is it as political or as DIY! transformative, though?

lex's comparison between the state of pop-critical music tastes & the state of non-musical "indie" culture (juno, wes anderson, designer cupcake shoppes) makes a lot of sense to me. animal collective's new one being a fair example.

this has already begun, with fuck buttons

You think? I'm not so sure. Noise-with-melody doesn't equate with noise-as-teen-friendly, for all manner of reasons. (Mind you: I do remember someone having a go at the FB album for exactly that reason, which I thought was horseshit at the time and think is horseshit now.)

he latter thread persists in the current vogue for vaguely "metal" post rock stuff, instrumental or otherwise. isis, pelican, jesu, etc. much of which IS strongly political

Sorry, what? Isis, Pelican, Jesu: strongly political? In what possible way? Mildly, vaguely, mumbly political, perhaps. But strongly?

Lex, I think, is broadly OTM about fear of earnestness, FWIW.

xxpost - I don't think it's conscious strategy on Animal Collective's part though - or at least not just for this album. They've been getting more big statement lyrically rather than less, but they started from a very low base (e.g. "hey light/I can wear my moccasins").

isis have always seemed explicitly political to me. as much so as any mostly instrumental band can be. i mean, "panopticon", after all

agree, though that the "mumbliness" is, i think, what allows these bands to be polical to whatever extent they actually are.

is it as political or as DIY! transformative, though?

No, not at all, but that's an effect of it being more masculine. Electroclash could be political/DIY! transformative (in small measure) because it created space for female and queer artists in a way that the current scene doesn't really. I think this gender issue is more fundamental to the music than some underlying political impulse.

more quirkiness: lady gaga, katy perry and her lollipops and hearts, those fucking vampire weekend lyrics

I meant biggest in terms of being an "event" in indie land, the commonly agreed upon "big statement" record of 2009. But that consensus derives, I think, from the big-soundingness of the record, something that that Mercury Rev record shared in many senses.

Yes, and this is what I was edging you towards. It's the consensus record. It has a big sound and it does have lofty ambitions within a populist framework, and for better or worse it's going to clean up at the polls and the sales. Its quality is moot; what can be said is that it is of sufficient quality for its "bigness" (born out of existing reputation, slightly modified approach, huge sound) to be a success. Can you think of any "big" records that actually failed due to low quality?

As for the lyrical approach, well, tending towards "writing what you really know" lends itself to slightly sterile musical thrills IMO, although clearly fear of failure is resulting in less absolute clunkers. I'd almost prefer it if I didn't know whether my favourite band was about to release a stinker or a stormer.

i mean, "panopticon", after all

I think calling it FUCK A $URVEILLANCE $OCIETY or something might have been more overtly political than Panopticon, don't you? :) And I speak as someone who did actually pore over the screed on the CD sleeve!

I suppose it depends on your definition of political: I wouldn't deny that Isis are politically informed, but I really don't see it as something they're shouting about. It was Jesu I was really O_o at, I have to say.

(As an aside: following my comments this morning I'm listening to the Grouper album again and it's revealing itself as a thing of some wonder this time round. Right, back to the arguing.)

the commonly agreed upon "big statement" record of 2009

this is only true within a small corner of the internet though, isn't it? it annoys me even more than people merely raving about the quality of the record. i don't actually see any evidence for this outside of pfork-friendly pockets of the internet, i certainly don't agree that it's "commonly agreed upon"

the commonly agreed upon "big statement" record of 2009

this is only true within a small corner of the internet though, isn't it?

Bit early to say, on both counts, no?

maybe so! but i know from experience that if people say things like "this is the commonly agreed big statement album of the year" enough, it has a tendency to become so.

gotcha, grimly. i nommed jesu to describe the genre, not to indicate that all bands in the genre were equally political. realize that i was unclear about it, tho. jesu seem almost entirely apolitical to me. that said, there does seem to be a weird kind of implicit politicality in the whole "sad, epic, ennui-ridden" approach. don't know why this is, but super-political vegan/crusty folk REALLY seem to get into it. i suppose it's the combination of despair and hope

what does everybody mean by "big statement"?

that which is taken as a big statement

lol

i mean, politically? or the sound defining the year? or just indie's greatest exposure in the mainstream?

xpost to Contenderizer ... I see: yeh, I get where you're coming from. I'd definitely agree with the last bit: hard to quantify, perhaps, but oddly tangible all the same.

what does everybody mean by "big statement"?

I couldn't put it better than, er, Tim F did when someone asked that 10 minutes ago:

I meant biggest in terms of being an "event" in indie land, the commonly agreed upon "big statement" record of 2009. But that consensus derives, I think, from the big-soundingness of the record, something that that Mercury Rev record shared in many senses.

:)

(I appreciate that he was defining "biggest" rather than "big statement", but I think his definition of "biggest" incorporates what he means by "big statement" ... oh, fuck it.)

ah, right. missed that when browser tried to expand the thread apparently. was confused by political discussion then blah blah blah and all AC political wtf?

carryon

i killed thread :(

Lex I specifically said "indie land"! I know it's not the biggest record in your world or many other worlds.

Yes, and this is what I was edging you towards. It's the consensus record. It has a big sound and it does have lofty ambitions within a populist framework, and for better or worse it's going to clean up at the polls and the sales. Its quality is moot; what can be said is that it is of sufficient quality for its "bigness" (born out of existing reputation, slightly modified approach, huge sound) to be a success. Can you think of any "big" records that actually failed due to low quality?

I get your point, but I don't think that this cancels out all genuine critical engagement with the record. Merriweather Post Pavillion is a better record than Deserter's Songs, and both are much better records than The Soft Bulletin or Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. You can be annoyed all year that MPP is going to sweep polls, and understandably so, but this says nothing about the quality or otherwise of the record.

You can be annoyed all year that MPP is going to sweep polls, and understandably so, but this says nothing about the quality ... of the record.

but nor does sweeping polls

Of course not. But poll placement only ever tells you about the likes of a certain group of people - don't we all take that for granted at the outset?

I find critical consensuses irritating as well, but that doesn't automatically mean that the object of consensus is aesthetically bankrupt. MPP will probably win the Pitchfork Poll, but 2006's winner was Silent Shout. I don't think you can conflate those two albums.

The only sense in which this conversation is really interesting or meaningful from my perspective is when there is stuff that is ignored by critical consensus that you can't find a good reason for - i.e. it's populist, it's popular, it's inventive, it's good.

Or, alternatively, when the critical consensus is so tightly wrapped around a particular model that it can't really see the value of anything else. I don't think this is really the case at the moment w/r/t either indie or pop, for all the inevitability of MPP's success. There's not really a strong narrative that defines (the critical reception of) either pop or indie right now, I don't think.

I'll note an exception for the UK/BBC celebration of quirk angle. I don't think this is across the board though.

i wasn't objecting to the critical consensus, but rather to your attachment of the quality of "quality" to MPP. esp to the "Merriweather Post Pavillion is a better record than Deserter's Songs, and both are much better records than The Soft Bulletin or Yankee Hotel Foxtrot" bit, which took me by surprise. people like what they like, of course, but you presented things in a very fact-like manner.

plus not sure what you mean about MPP vs. silent shout. i like em both (the knife moreso), and am unsurprised by the critical adulation in both cases. is this conflation?

There's not really a strong narrative that defines (the critical reception of) either pop or indie right now, I don't think.

surprised by this

"better record" for me obv. I group those records together as four records that have all had a similar "big statement" impact on indie critical consensus, and all done very well by it. But I can discern, using subjective and idiosyncratic critical measures, large differences between them qualitatively. I was making what I thought was a fairly obvious point in response to louis' implication that such records have zero meaning or value beyond their "bigness".

Same point re The Knife and MPP - if there is a common thread between these two albums ("bigness"???) it's too vague and diffuse to say anything that final or definitive about their quality.

Basically I think we should critique critical consensus but remember that consensus is something that happens around records.

surprised by this

What would you argue is the narrative?

gotcha about the quality thing. your phrasing seemed to suggest some kind of "objective criteria" -based determination, but maybe just to me.

anyway, lots of related narratives have been discussed in this thread (and recently on ILX). retreat from/depletion of extremity, the depoliticalization of "independence", p-fork influence & cultural homogeneity, the way the mainstreaming of non-musical "indie culture" has fed back into music, assimilation of electronic & dance musics, transmutation of many different strains of niche music into a broad palette of digitally-enhanced pop. i don't wanna waste time unpacking and linking, cuz this all seems like the CW.

Yeah but those are very diffuse longterm developments. I was thinking more in terms of quite tight "models" being put forward in each area.

I guess you could say widescreen hippie sensibilities in indie and glammed up day-glo in pop, but these strike me as less firm and total than the critical consensus positions in, say, 2001/2002 ("back to basics" rock for indie, and the total annexation of pop by futurist (or "futurist") R&B/hip hop for pop).

There's not really a strong narrative that defines (the critical reception of) either pop or indie right now, I don't think.

This happened at the end of the 90s as well. Maybe it's the way tastemaking consciously arranges itself around decade-long narratives these days, but there's definitely been either a recent breakdown of dominant trends (lol haircut indie) or a slow journey from faddish-but-influential sidelines to the mainstream (development of 'electro' from 2002 to 2009). But that process breaks down the critical consensuses that have been fallen back on for the past few years, and they take time to rearrange themselves around something new. Everything feels a bit schizophrenic at the moment but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Yeah I agree. I think the current "models" I tentatively proposed above are broad enough to let a lot of different stuff in, both good and bad.

well, it got beat to death, and is snotty besides, but electrodribble. that's my take on now indie, and what we'll be hearing/talking about during 2009. MPP and that YYYs song being examples, along with lots of stuff on this thread. intersection between m.o.r. dance stuff, indie rockers experimenting with electronic textures, "futurist" R&B/hip-hop, and hippie head candy built on laptops. none of which is new, but the trends meet up nicely, sound good together, and seem to be pushing most other stuff out to the margins.

I sort of agree with you - I think the UK consensus at least has drifted from fairly rigid tribalism (around 2001-2003 in particular) to a point where rock, dance and various other points around them (hip-hop/pop/grime/whatever) overlap far more and that sense of suspicion has evaporated somewhat, if it ever existed. Much of this is to do with generations of artists growing up around one another, becoming more used to each other's music, and sparking off one another.

I'd say this crossover probably really hit in 2007, but it's much harder to see prevailing critical narratives in the period immediately after that point, up until a new generation comes along to blow it away. That's partly why this list looks like a mishmash of genre picks and hardy perennials - there are relatively few of the kind of hugely prominent *new* acts that would have dominated both the albums and singles polls nearer the start of the decade.

oh, and all the stuff i mentioned above fit together very well (if unexpectedly) with quiet, closely miked, semi-acoustic semi-folky indie stuff. sharpness of detail, clarity of tone, spaciousness, attention to silences, prominence of individual vocal/melodic elements, low-key psyche leanings, etc.

hai guys so did Beach House not even get nommed? Didn't see them on any of the final lists.

also:

ha i personally accounted for more than half of marnie stern's points

― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Monday, February 16, 2009 5:07 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

I sincerely hope that GGD/Marnie Stern tour came to your hood last year because that was easily the best show I saw in 08.

Gang Gang Dance are part of this convergence aren't they, but you can't really stick 'em in the dribbly bucket. Maybe there's too much chaos in their music, their sound seems to spiral out in all directions at once from a centre that you can't quite locate. I'm still at a loss as to how to define quite what they do. Maybe we'll get a bunch of stuff that follows in their wake, hopefully those won't just be dilutions though.

x-post