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xxx-post no. i don't see much explicitly political music that's close to surface WR2 the pop mainstream and/or critical interest zone. i mean it's here and there (queer politics in stuff like Antony, throwback punk stuff like Against Me!, teen alienation in crystal castles, implicitly political extreme music like BSBC & load bands, etc.), but seems to have become quite unfashionable as of late. a few years ago, it seemed like "new weird america" bands like animal collective were expressing some dissatisfaction with commercial music forms and technological society, but those critiques no longer seem present in ACs music. and that strain of wild & woolly "freedom" isn't as popular as it once was.

lex OTM, though. there is some. i'd mentioned the bug, but badu & jeezy 2. those seem like real outliers, though. rare things. and where's the rock/indie equivalent?

a few years ago, we might have seen stuff like the locust, blood brothers at least flirting with the list, right?

if Burn, Piano Island, Burn didn't make the list in '03 then tbh ILX fucked up big-time

agree w/ tim WR2 the "well-trodden"-ness of the outer edges. i think we're seeing the pendulum of interest in extremes swing back after a few decades in the twilight zones. i'm not bitching about this, though - just observing the effect.

lex OTM, though. there is some. i'd mentioned the bug, but badu & jeezy 2. those seem like real outliers, though. rare things. and where's the rock/indie equivalent?

is this where we get into the quirkification of pop culture over the past few years, and the resultant fear of earnestness?

probly

yeah i mean that animal collective song has the line everyone quotes--"i don't care much for material things / i just want 4 walls and adobe slats" etc. etc. which could be read in that way but any dissatisfaction they're expressing is pretty vague--not surprising when they have reasonable means and (as far as I can tell) normal middle-class backgrounds.

i think you're right abt blood brothers but i don't really want to revisit the days when people were repping for them either.

lex: heh! I meant it was relatively accessible in a wire context. the bug would last far longer on an office stereo than, say, borbetomagus.

Tim: you're right re: middle ground and all. I guess more broadly, the list is narrow in terms of its adherence to western pop styles - i.e. no jazz, classical, free improvisation, folk, modern composition, world music (I know, a rancid term, but what else is there?) - unless the finnish psych counts. I only alighted upon the lack of 'noisy stuff', for want of a better catch-all, because that constitutes a significant chunk of the music I know and love, and its absence is therefore the most glaring to me.

i just can't think of too many indie standard-bearers who really have the gravity and credibility to do something as convincing as Jeezy or the Bug (whatever I think about their music).

arcade fire, hold steady, AC all could pull it off, if they wanted to, if they really meant it. and i guess i should include arcade fire among the bands who do retain a political edge in their music.

another faded trend that recently kept politics, punk "opposition" and social critique in the indie/critical eye: GSYBE! & constellation-style cinematic sadcore.

^ the latter thread persists in the current vogue for vaguely "metal" post rock stuff, instrumental or otherwise. isis, pelican, jesu, etc. much of which IS strongly political.

Yeah I think it's a partly-justified fear of making "big statement" music that prevents indie standard-bearers from doing this. One way to think about the Animal Collective's new album - which is probably the biggest big-statement indie album in a while and almost certainly will be the most successful critically this year - is that all of that impulse is poured into the music, and the lyrics are deliberately mundane and domestic by comparison (e.g. singing about taking yr daughter to school through the park).

This is separate but strongly related to the "quirkification"/"fear of earnestness" in mainstream music Lex refers to (I assume we're talking Mika etc.); in both cases, one issue at work is that bands/artists who are trying to stylise themselves as individual become suspicious of their capacity to pull off earnestness without coming on all Coldplay,

xp strange you should mention that, as a silver mount zion's last album fits the bill. it's more bitterly optimistic than angry though.

but certainly, "faded trend" would apply.

If anything, it's precisely the "pop"-tinged noise outfits that have something to offer here, insofar as the broader listening community simply haven't engaged with noise at all

i think "noise" has the potential to become the next "alternative," "indie" or "emo," in the sense of a somewhat vague modifier that sounds hip and could come to signify commercial music that doesn't have a lot to do with its original usage. you already see this in a lot of record reviews, people throwing around "noise" to mean all sorts of things, but i could easily see it making the leap to yr average 14-yr-old, with the right band to sell it. among other things, it's an adjective perfectly suited to irritate parents.

I would say though that the "politics" in a lot of those post-post-punk threads felt very ossified, as much a part of the genre-tradition as certain types of guitar-sounds and therefore no longer very meaningful-sounding.

Similarly, I don't need here to another nu-soul song about body-image and/or refuting the (visual) expectations of the mainstream. Or another post-Ani-DiFranco folk-punk singer proudly proclaiming his/her sexual ambiguity.

Such political interventions usually have traction at the beginning but if they're standard genre moves then that traction wears away.

xp: this has already begun, with fuck buttons.

This is separate but strongly related to the "quirkification"/"fear of earnestness" in mainstream music Lex refers to (I assume we're talking Mika etc.)

not even just mainstream music - mika certainly fits though, as does pretty much every artist in IT'S THE FUTURE, IT'S THE FUTURE: BBC Sound of 2009 'Longlist' Poll

it's wider than that though...it's stuff like juno opting for quirkiness over emotion at, like, every single juncture, and wes anderson's entire career - self-conscious cleverness, quirkiness and metatext is the dominant mode of expression in indie/pop culture right now, and it's not terribly conducive to big political statements.

one issue at work is that bands/artists who are trying to stylise themselves as individual become suspicious of their capacity to pull off earnestness without coming on all Coldplay

yeah, but you don't have to go back very far to find a huge amount of critical interest & popular/scene support for earnest feminist artists/bands like le tigre & sleater kinney. post riot grrrl stuff. and less earnest but equally political stuff like peaches, chicks on speed, punky lo-budget electroclash in general. have those veins dried up too?

also parts & labor for the not-so-noisy "noise" thing. but then again, they're a good example of a contemporary band with a strong political stance/identity.

^ remainder of the former = the gossip

One way to think about the Animal Collective's new album - which is probably the biggest big-statement indie album in a while and almost certainly will be the most successful critically this year - is that all of that impulse is poured into the music, and the lyrics are deliberately mundane and domestic by comparison (e.g. singing about taking yr daughter to school through the park).

How so, "biggest"? Most ambitious? Best? Most open-minded and musically-stunning? Or most adorable, most pleasantly-rendered?

Such lyrical content is a bit of a cop-out, I find, and you run the risk of explaining it away with a pat qualitative dichotomy, although I do accept that the lyrical content is kept simple so as not to work against the music. (Which is a deficiency in my book.)

The album itself I've heard once, and I didn't like it all that much. It had a little of the whole Deserter's Songs "spangles of bright colour draped on a clothesline" thing to it; the songs didn't transcend or transform for me, they merely throbbed, spun and dissolved.

I will give it more listens, though.

Re Peaches/electrohouse etc.:

Bigger issue probably is that the current equivalent of electrohouse is much more masculine than it was circa 2002. The audience is always there for that sort of thing but the stylistic configurations have to be right.

How so, "biggest"? Most ambitious? Best? Most open-minded and musically-stunning? Or most adorable, most pleasantly-rendered?

I meant biggest in terms of being an "event" in indie land, the commonly agreed upon "big statement" record of 2009. But that consensus derives, I think, from the big-soundingness of the record, something that that Mercury Rev record shared in many senses.

Such lyrical content is a bit of a cop-out, I find, and you run the risk of explaining it away with a pat qualitative dichotomy, although I do accept that the lyrical content is kept simple so as not to work against the music. (Which is a deficiency in my book.)

Actually i wasn't defending this, I was suggesting that this is the archetypal "pat dichotomy" that tends to typify the indie approach when it comes to making big statements circa 2009.

Bigger issue probably is that the current equivalent of electrohouse is much more masculine than it was circa 2000

is it as political or as DIY! transformative, though?

lex's comparison between the state of pop-critical music tastes & the state of non-musical "indie" culture (juno, wes anderson, designer cupcake shoppes) makes a lot of sense to me. animal collective's new one being a fair example.

this has already begun, with fuck buttons

You think? I'm not so sure. Noise-with-melody doesn't equate with noise-as-teen-friendly, for all manner of reasons. (Mind you: I do remember someone having a go at the FB album for exactly that reason, which I thought was horseshit at the time and think is horseshit now.)

he latter thread persists in the current vogue for vaguely "metal" post rock stuff, instrumental or otherwise. isis, pelican, jesu, etc. much of which IS strongly political

Sorry, what? Isis, Pelican, Jesu: strongly political? In what possible way? Mildly, vaguely, mumbly political, perhaps. But strongly?

Lex, I think, is broadly OTM about fear of earnestness, FWIW.

xxpost - I don't think it's conscious strategy on Animal Collective's part though - or at least not just for this album. They've been getting more big statement lyrically rather than less, but they started from a very low base (e.g. "hey light/I can wear my moccasins").

isis have always seemed explicitly political to me. as much so as any mostly instrumental band can be. i mean, "panopticon", after all

agree, though that the "mumbliness" is, i think, what allows these bands to be polical to whatever extent they actually are.

is it as political or as DIY! transformative, though?

No, not at all, but that's an effect of it being more masculine. Electroclash could be political/DIY! transformative (in small measure) because it created space for female and queer artists in a way that the current scene doesn't really. I think this gender issue is more fundamental to the music than some underlying political impulse.

more quirkiness: lady gaga, katy perry and her lollipops and hearts, those fucking vampire weekend lyrics

I meant biggest in terms of being an "event" in indie land, the commonly agreed upon "big statement" record of 2009. But that consensus derives, I think, from the big-soundingness of the record, something that that Mercury Rev record shared in many senses.

Yes, and this is what I was edging you towards. It's the consensus record. It has a big sound and it does have lofty ambitions within a populist framework, and for better or worse it's going to clean up at the polls and the sales. Its quality is moot; what can be said is that it is of sufficient quality for its "bigness" (born out of existing reputation, slightly modified approach, huge sound) to be a success. Can you think of any "big" records that actually failed due to low quality?

As for the lyrical approach, well, tending towards "writing what you really know" lends itself to slightly sterile musical thrills IMO, although clearly fear of failure is resulting in less absolute clunkers. I'd almost prefer it if I didn't know whether my favourite band was about to release a stinker or a stormer.

i mean, "panopticon", after all

I think calling it FUCK A $URVEILLANCE $OCIETY or something might have been more overtly political than Panopticon, don't you? :) And I speak as someone who did actually pore over the screed on the CD sleeve!

I suppose it depends on your definition of political: I wouldn't deny that Isis are politically informed, but I really don't see it as something they're shouting about. It was Jesu I was really O_o at, I have to say.

(As an aside: following my comments this morning I'm listening to the Grouper album again and it's revealing itself as a thing of some wonder this time round. Right, back to the arguing.)

the commonly agreed upon "big statement" record of 2009

this is only true within a small corner of the internet though, isn't it? it annoys me even more than people merely raving about the quality of the record. i don't actually see any evidence for this outside of pfork-friendly pockets of the internet, i certainly don't agree that it's "commonly agreed upon"

the commonly agreed upon "big statement" record of 2009

this is only true within a small corner of the internet though, isn't it?

Bit early to say, on both counts, no?

maybe so! but i know from experience that if people say things like "this is the commonly agreed big statement album of the year" enough, it has a tendency to become so.

gotcha, grimly. i nommed jesu to describe the genre, not to indicate that all bands in the genre were equally political. realize that i was unclear about it, tho. jesu seem almost entirely apolitical to me. that said, there does seem to be a weird kind of implicit politicality in the whole "sad, epic, ennui-ridden" approach. don't know why this is, but super-political vegan/crusty folk REALLY seem to get into it. i suppose it's the combination of despair and hope

what does everybody mean by "big statement"?

that which is taken as a big statement

lol

i mean, politically? or the sound defining the year? or just indie's greatest exposure in the mainstream?

xpost to Contenderizer ... I see: yeh, I get where you're coming from. I'd definitely agree with the last bit: hard to quantify, perhaps, but oddly tangible all the same.

what does everybody mean by "big statement"?

I couldn't put it better than, er, Tim F did when someone asked that 10 minutes ago:

I meant biggest in terms of being an "event" in indie land, the commonly agreed upon "big statement" record of 2009. But that consensus derives, I think, from the big-soundingness of the record, something that that Mercury Rev record shared in many senses.

:)

(I appreciate that he was defining "biggest" rather than "big statement", but I think his definition of "biggest" incorporates what he means by "big statement" ... oh, fuck it.)

ah, right. missed that when browser tried to expand the thread apparently. was confused by political discussion then blah blah blah and all AC political wtf?

carryon

i killed thread :(

Lex I specifically said "indie land"! I know it's not the biggest record in your world or many other worlds.

Yes, and this is what I was edging you towards. It's the consensus record. It has a big sound and it does have lofty ambitions within a populist framework, and for better or worse it's going to clean up at the polls and the sales. Its quality is moot; what can be said is that it is of sufficient quality for its "bigness" (born out of existing reputation, slightly modified approach, huge sound) to be a success. Can you think of any "big" records that actually failed due to low quality?

I get your point, but I don't think that this cancels out all genuine critical engagement with the record. Merriweather Post Pavillion is a better record than Deserter's Songs, and both are much better records than The Soft Bulletin or Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. You can be annoyed all year that MPP is going to sweep polls, and understandably so, but this says nothing about the quality or otherwise of the record.

You can be annoyed all year that MPP is going to sweep polls, and understandably so, but this says nothing about the quality ... of the record.

but nor does sweeping polls

Of course not. But poll placement only ever tells you about the likes of a certain group of people - don't we all take that for granted at the outset?

I find critical consensuses irritating as well, but that doesn't automatically mean that the object of consensus is aesthetically bankrupt. MPP will probably win the Pitchfork Poll, but 2006's winner was Silent Shout. I don't think you can conflate those two albums.

The only sense in which this conversation is really interesting or meaningful from my perspective is when there is stuff that is ignored by critical consensus that you can't find a good reason for - i.e. it's populist, it's popular, it's inventive, it's good.

Or, alternatively, when the critical consensus is so tightly wrapped around a particular model that it can't really see the value of anything else. I don't think this is really the case at the moment w/r/t either indie or pop, for all the inevitability of MPP's success. There's not really a strong narrative that defines (the critical reception of) either pop or indie right now, I don't think.

I'll note an exception for the UK/BBC celebration of quirk angle. I don't think this is across the board though.

i wasn't objecting to the critical consensus, but rather to your attachment of the quality of "quality" to MPP. esp to the "Merriweather Post Pavillion is a better record than Deserter's Songs, and both are much better records than The Soft Bulletin or Yankee Hotel Foxtrot" bit, which took me by surprise. people like what they like, of course, but you presented things in a very fact-like manner.

plus not sure what you mean about MPP vs. silent shout. i like em both (the knife moreso), and am unsurprised by the critical adulation in both cases. is this conflation?

There's not really a strong narrative that defines (the critical reception of) either pop or indie right now, I don't think.

surprised by this