TS: GRIME vs JUNGLE/DRUM N BASS

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also i think there are more grime fans around the world than in london. which doesn't seem right somehow.

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:51 (twenty years ago)

jungle vs UKG (from armand's "digital" remix all the way to the "run the road" comp) would be a fair and exciting fight - actually didn't we do that last week?

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:54 (twenty years ago)

ha ha i still think jungle would win. (even the "underground"/"leftfield" dnb records sell as much or more than grime.)

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:55 (twenty years ago)

seems to me that grime could do with being a great deal more whimsical and ornate and romantic!

is it not fundamentally incapable of that without becoming something else or being labelled as something else? when artists renowned for being Grime lynchpins do this it's suddenly no longer Grime it seems (see the last So Solid Crew album, Dizzee and the current Rolldeep and Kano ones for the obv. examples).

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:55 (twenty years ago)

even the "underground"/"leftfield" dnb records sell as much or more than grime

Dillinja was almost getting into the top 40 as recently as eighteen months ago! Crazy.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:57 (twenty years ago)

Tho of course that's 65 lower sales generally and 35 dnb persistence and resurgence

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:57 (twenty years ago)

after reinvestigating for the last 18 months, nothing makes me more embarassed on ilm than to go back and witness the anti-post98 dnb spiels i would reel off inna sub-reynolds stylee. this is like a rock critic trying to escape the shadow of bangs, isn't it?

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:57 (twenty years ago)

xpost: yes but that's in a gimmick-mad country where a CGI frog is topping the charts. i would be shocked if the builder of the valve soundsystem didn't make the top 40.

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:59 (twenty years ago)

well a lot of these records (dizzee excepted) consist not of grime at all but straightforward brit hip hop/r&b (the kano album is what? - 5 grime tracks out of 16, 3 of them oldies?) as if record companies don't trust grime in itself to sell (again, see "showtime," the only one of these records to go top ten, and arguably the "grimiest" of the lot).

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:59 (twenty years ago)

Dillinja was almost getting into the top 40 as recently as eighteen months ago! Crazy.

there was a d-bridge interview in knowledge recently where he said he had gone back into hmv and they had re-racked the drum & bass section after a long absence and my first thought was "oh dear, does grime even have a section?"

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:00 (twenty years ago)

though speaking from the standpoint of someone who works at a not-quite-indie/not-quite-mainstream US record store, we stick the handful of grime records in the rap section and probably stock about 8 dnb records total, all due to my ordering. (i dont think any of them have sold, btw, grime or dnb.)

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:03 (twenty years ago)

haha get this, at my local shop:

dizzee rascal - stocked in rap (doesn't seem like it's selling)

streets, wiley, so solid, etc - stocked in dance (also aren't selling, except the streets, which is selling so well that even the hip highschoolers who work at the coffeshop are down with it)

on the stereo when i last walked in the shop: the new dj fresh mix (dnb still selling strong in the land of xtreme sports!)

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:07 (twenty years ago)

haha i wish we got to play dj fresh instead of embrace :(

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:08 (twenty years ago)

I need a Rough Guide to post 98 dnb

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:09 (twenty years ago)

mainstream or indie?

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:10 (twenty years ago)

one of each please ;)

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:13 (twenty years ago)

lemme think on it at work today and get back to you. (unless someone else gets there first.)

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

"seems to me that grime could do with being a great deal more whimsical and ornate and romantic!
is it not fundamentally incapable of that without becoming something else or being labelled as something else? when artists renowned for being Grime lynchpins do this it's suddenly no longer Grime it seems (see the last So Solid Crew album, Dizzee and the current Rolldeep and Kano ones for the obv. examples)."

dizee had some lyrically whimisical tracks on his first album, and they were still grime(y). when grime artists like roll deep or kano try to do romantic songs, it comes off as vapid sugary slush - so no thank you.

― fizzle, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

thanks strng that'd be absolutely chief egg luv

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

"grime seems an odd genre to be whimiscal and ornate and romantic about.
you may be right but why so?"

because the genre isnt about those qualities at all. when i read bloggers talking about how some stupid kid in a dvd had 'the saddest expression in the world' and geting all dewey eyed about some pirate session where the MCs were talking about 'reaching for the tool' or whatever, it just sounds paradoxically wrong, and more than a little bit silly if i may be honest. its like liberal art critics seeing the cruddiest shit and waxing embarasingly poetic about every tiny little crevice of beauty in its every millimetre. it sounds a tad cringey.

the thing about channel u vids, well most of them, is that theyre just like grime records - no production values, abysmal quality, but full of energy and some 'raw' talent lurking in there. theyre like the vid equivalent of demo-mp3s. not sure if this is a good thing.

― fizzle, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

mainstream

ed rush & optical - funktion
dom & roland - can't punish me
hive - ultrasonic sound (dillinja remix)
stakka & skynets - side effects VIP
bad company - planet dust
moving fusion - thunderball
danny c - the mexican
dj marky & xrs - LK remix
high contrast - return to forever
hold tight - 925
peshay - got me burning
j majik vs hatiras - spaced invader
decorum - weapon (contrax remix)
john b - blue eyeshadow
total science - nosher (baron remix)
pendulum - trail of sevens
dj fresh - temple of doom
optimus prime - amen slag
dillinja - grimey
mampi swift - rebirth

i could go on for a while ... i'm missing a nu-photek track (prob a special forces track would be best, or maybe "we got heat") ... missing other stuff too, like more vocal tracks ...

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

Funktion is pre 98 isn't it? it's one of the tiny few i know from that list - i know the Peshay but don't think I liked anything he did after the album (which I ended up re-discovering and liking after initial dismissal, esp. electro track 'Robotics'). Love most John B, Fresh's 'Shinobi' and a few other things...but I'm not that into the ultra harsh-step beat which just seemed to take over.

I suddenly really want to hear a clownstep remix of Medicine 8's 'Mystery Murdered'.

I don't suppose anybody makes tracks like 'Babylon' by Splash anymore do they?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

Andy C's essential mix from May probably doesn't make a good rough guide b/c every other track is a dub or white label, but if this is what dnb sounds like now...it's pretty good. http://www.smartshanghai.com/en/community/forumthread.php?board_id=3237

― W i l l (common_person), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 12:45 (twenty years ago)

i have SIX, yes SIX discs i have "compiled" that i will post when i get home.

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 15:35 (twenty years ago)

still working on the neo-ragga one, but:

Jump Up/"Darkside"

01. Ludacris - "Roll Out (Dylan Remix)"
02. Rawhill Cru - "Mo' Fire (BC UK Remix)"
03. Dillinja feat. MC Skibadee - "Twist 'Em Out"
04. DJ Fresh - "Dead Man Walking"
05. Distorted Minds - "The Warriors"
06. Ram Trilogy - "Screamer"
07. BC UK - "Snowcat"
08. Pendulum - "Vault"
09. Tech Itch feat. MC Jakes - "The Rising"
10. Mason feat. MC Armani Reign - "Ruff, Rugged, & Raw"
11. Manix - "Hardcore Junglism (Total Science Remix)"
12. Origin Unknown feat. Dynamite MC - "Hotness"

Liquid/Jazz/Samba Magical

01. DJ Marky & XRS feat. Stamina MC - "LK (Carolina Carol Bela)"
02. DJ Die - "Autumn (Commix Remix)"
03. Shy FX & T-Power - "Shake Ur Body"
04. Peshay - "Jammin"
05. DJ Fresh - "All That Jazz"
06. High Contrast - "Lovesick"
07. Funk & Flex - "Walk By Faith"
08. D-Brige - "China Blue"
09. London Elektricity feat. Robert Owens - "In My Dreams (Total Science Remix)"
10. Seba & Lenk feat. Robert Manos - "Every Man For Himself"
11. Addiction & Carilito - "Supergrass"
12. Jahiem - "Put That Woman First (Calibre Remix)"

Dub & Bass

01. Digital - "Champion Bubbler"
02. Calibre & High Contrast - "Mr. Majestik"
03. Amit - "Gatecrasher"
04. Breakage - "So Mars"
05. Digital - "Ras 78"
06. Visionary - "No. 9 Dub"
07. Equinox - "Ital Tuff Lion Head"
08. Digital - "Gateman"
09. Amit - "Motherland"
10. Juju - "Thunder"
11. Breakage - "Bring Back (Remix)"
12. Calibre - "Can't Stop This Fire"

Edits/Drumfunk

01. Fracture & Neptune - "Colemanism"
02. John B - "Broken Language (Exile Mix)"
03. Southstar & Miracle - "Omega Amen"
04. Paradox - "A Certain Sound"
05. Senses - "Darker Self"
06. Klute - "Perceptron (Fanu Remix)"
07. Fracture & Neptune - "Worm Science"
08. Seba & Paradox - "You Didn't See It, Did You?"
09. Miraculous - "Can't Hold Back"
10. Intext Systems - "Drum Track 2"
11. Equinox - "Acid Rain (Breakage Remix)"
12. 0=0 - "Soul Hunter Testifies

Weirdbeat

01. Sileni - "Twitchy Droid Leg"
02. Exile - "Cut By Plastic"
03. Squarepusher - "Venus No. 17"
04. Paradox - "I Get A Kickback"
05. Ed Rush & Optical - "Funktion"
06. Hidden Agenda - "Fish Eggs"
07. Eight Miles High - ""Flowchart
08. Something Else - "Ploosh (Morgan Packard Remix)"
09. Tundra - "Sprouts (Omni Trio Remix)"
10. Ezekiel Honig - "Love Sessions (Graphic Remix)"
11. Actual Proof - "Maybe We'll Stay (Sileni Remix)"

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 22:04 (twenty years ago)

jungle has aged badly. i used to love it. bought loads of it. now i can hardly bear to listen to most of it. it really is not sensible to build a genre around a single hyper-complex drum break.

whereas it surprises me how much very good grime i've accumulated solely through mp3s by now. i just feel like the vocals give it an extra key dimension. with jungle you are mostly listening to instrumentals at the end of the day. instrumentals with variations on the same drum break.

2-step was probably better than both grime and jungle though. more interesting, sexy, compelling both rhythmically and vocally.

of course i am probably an old man.

― bugged out, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 23:51 (twenty years ago)

ps intellectualizing vs. not-intellectualizing is a convenient (for both sides, depending) but misleading dichotomy. its the quality of the intellectualization. and yes, the grime intellectualizers have been doing it for years. that's the problem. i tune out of those tedious, interminable dissensus threads about two sentences into every post. heard variations on the same themes for about 10 years now.

of course i am probably an old man.

― bugged out, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 23:55 (twenty years ago)

My favourite post-98 D&B not on Jess's list:

Lexis - Criminal Elements (but heaps of other stuff too; search Branch of Knowledge, which is my favourite post-98 d&b artist album)
Teebee - Black Rain
E-Z Rollers - RS 2000 (Vocal Mix)
Cyba Space - Life (Dom & Roland Mix)
Hatiras v J. Majik - Spaced Invader
Total Science - It's Not Over
Dom & Roland - Can't Punish Me
J. Majik - Solarize (basically a chip off the "Spaced Invader" block)
Fresh & Vegus - Otto's Way (this was either late 98 or early 99 I think)
Klute - Leo 9
High Contrast - Return of Forever
Dillinja - Thugged Out Bitch
Kosheen - Hide U (you may laugh, but this was a massive massive scene tune when it was released in its original dub form (subsequently called the Decoder & Substance remix I think) and would send everyone absolutely crazy at d&b nights. Obviously overplayed to death now...)
That awesome D&B bootleg of Mel B's "I Want You Back" whose origin is unknown to me and which is now probably lost forever - I want it so badly!

I'll defer to Jess on the Inperspective/Breakage etc. stuff, but I will say that I absolutely adore the DJ Clever Troubled Waters mix (which is actually halfway between Inperspective stuff and Lexis, although funnily enough Lexis himself seems to have disappeared in the last four years or so) - it would have been in my top ten for last year had I heard it in time.

Vahid you have that J Majik 7 mix don't you? "Amen Slag" is good yeah...

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:27 (twenty years ago)

j. majik has just completely gone off the boil in the last couple years. (i blame that "wickaman" character he's been loafing about with.) really l.c.d. clownstep without the production nous of fresh.

― strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:35 (twenty years ago)

i'd probably swap out "dead man walking" for "submarines" btw.

― strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:36 (twenty years ago)

Nu-Ragga Jungle:

1) 45 Thieves "Release (Victor Paul Mix)"
2) Debaser "Clash Night"
3) DJ C Feat Shinehead "Billy Jungle"
4) DJ K "Kill Or Be Killed"
5) Soundmurderer "Call Da Police"
6) Capleton "Conscience a Heng Dem (Aaron Spectre Remix)"
7) 0=0 "Soda 411"
8) Demolition Man "The Children (Debaser Mix)"
9) Congo Natty Feat Michael Prophet "Your Love"
10) Jacky Murda & R Cola "Jungle Teng (Pecos Version)"

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:38 (twenty years ago)

"j. majik has just completely gone off the boil in the last couple years. (i blame that "wickaman" character he's been loafing about with.) really l.c.d. clownstep without the production nous of fresh."

He was always only ever accidentally great anyway, I think. "Your Sound" was ace but I can't think of any other really awesome early tunes he did, and then that later miniature rennaissance of intense french d&b seemed to be more about catching the right wave.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:41 (twenty years ago)

haha grime isn't looking too good all of a sudden

x-post: he talked about his earlier records being "headphone" dnb in a recent interview and i just wanted to slap him

― strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:44 (twenty years ago)

does digital have a full-length album? his tracks are fucking dope

― Ô¿Ô (eman), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 02:13 (twenty years ago)

http://www.discogs.com/release/73688

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 02:20 (twenty years ago)

Dub & Bass

so, is this the same style as digital's knowledge mix?

i see names i recognize ... amit, breakage, calibre, equinox, digital ... but i'm not used to seeing them together! i know what old digital sounds like (bassy, shadowy and subtle), amit is sort of source direct-ish? calibre is like nu-soul snappiness and breakage and equinox obv represent the inperspective sound.

what is the intersection of these crews all about?? is it like the ressurection of the classic steely certificate 18 sound??

― vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 05:57 (twenty years ago)

Vahid I suspect Digital meets Inperspective at the other end of their sound - not steely Certificate 18 so much as a rain of breakbeats and dub feedback so thick and dense that rhythm qua rhythm is barely discernible.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 06:06 (twenty years ago)

this is probably much softer than the reality of digital's dub+bass style, but now i am imagining a strand of dnb built on the foundation of that magical two minutes of the original "logical progression" mix by LTJ bukem ... the last breaks of seba + lotek's "so long" are echoed into this single huge cosmic pulse, sounds like a thunderclap or something, except huge and soft and pillowy, like a giant falling into a cloudbank, and then photek's "rings around saturn" starts to come in, just that one super-delicate jazz breakbeat, but mastered so hazy and layered so thick that it just sizzles, and with the birdcall in the background the breaks sound like the beginning of the monsoon.

― vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 06:20 (twenty years ago)

haha about 3/4ths of that is ripped off directly from a list in a recent issue of knowledge, yes. from what i can tell the connect between the tracks seems to be a.) dub basslines (though still more pulse/riff-based than actual dub) and b.) dub affects (heavy echo, reverbed voice and horn samples, trad dub sound FX). it's a very surface interpretation of "dub" (only the equinox track actually approaches any kind of disorientation/psychedelic feeling). amit always gets called "half-speed" though it's obviously running at the same speed as all other dnb; he's emphasizing different beats in each bar so it sounds like it's running at 85 as well as 170bpm. everyone is shitting themselves over it because it represents a way of dealing with the "speed issue" (distorted minds/twisted individual/wickaman/gabba'n'bass/et al) without actually dealing with the speed issue at all.

― strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 08:14 (twenty years ago)

Grime!!

Cos it's still obscure and underground where I live (NZ), whereas most people here know about jungle.

I don't actually analyse music by how much I enjoy it, just by how pretentiously underground it can make me.

― Bn1, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 08:49 (twenty years ago)

cheers strng and others for the recs - now ah'ma track 'em down...

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 09:28 (twenty years ago)

"I don't actually analyse music by how much I enjoy it, just by how pretentiously underground it can make me."

OTM!

also, bugged out it OTM above except for saying jungle has aged badly (i dont think it has, its been made less special though cos its been co-opted by everything and is everywhere in TV music, soundtracks, whatever - sadly the d&b artists didnt reinvent themselves enough which is why i dont really care for much D&B from the last five years or so).

― fizzle, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 10:05 (twenty years ago)

i wrote up some new jungle/dnb 12"s here

http://www.stylusmagazine.com/feature.php?ID=1752

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 18:57 (twenty years ago)

"Most ragga junglists these days are pretty content to drop a Jamaican guy over an amen cut into a thousand pieces (it doesn't seem to matter how) and call it a day."

I would actually dispute this. I mean sure some neo-ragga jungle is like that (hell plenty of 94-95 ragga jungle was like that too!), but their are plenty of original vocals and non-Amen based riddims galore on Jungle Royale, Mashit, Chopstick Dubplate and their ilk these days.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 21 July 2005 19:32 (twenty years ago)

> (hell plenty of 94-95 ragga jungle was like that too!)

Amen to that!

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Thursday, 21 July 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)

their are plenty of original vocals and non-Amen based riddims galore on Jungle Royale, Mashit, Chopstick Dubplate and their ilk these days.

i'm familiar with those labels (that blurb was for a Mashit record!) but there seem to be a lot of generic tunes that hardly play with the groove (a chopped amen, some token subs, a straight vocal running thru the tune w/o any cool vocal science, timestretch etc). i feel like it has something to do with them all being like 175+ bpm. even the generic records from 94-95 had some space in them! or maybe i just haven't heard any really mediocre ones because they haven't survived.

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 23:14 (twenty years ago)

Most of the stuff on those labels isn't that fast (a lot of Chopstick stuff is almost languid for jungle--much closer to early-dancehall tempo) or uber-packed sounding. Give it another listen.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 21 July 2005 23:37 (twenty years ago)

I will agree they don't play much with the vocals though, but since mostof the best tracks use live vocalists it isn't too surprising.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 21 July 2005 23:39 (twenty years ago)

i should've been clear that i like those labels - Debaser's early stuff on Press Up was what got me excited about the movement (not trying to get down on ragga at all, when it's done well it's my favorite music anybody's making now)! but for every good record those labels put out, there are like two more on others that seem to fetishize the ragga-ness of the genre w/o doing much with it.

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:06 (twenty years ago)

sorry - should've been clearer

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:09 (twenty years ago)

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who rembembers grime

― Hungry4Ass, Tuesday, 28 August 2012 21:18 (thirteen years ago)

dizzee rascal

― Jandek at the Disco (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 28 August 2012 21:23 (thirteen years ago)

The first two posts aren't really from 2001, are they?

― Tim F, Tuesday, 28 August 2012 21:24 (thirteen years ago)

I still listen to grime, like 2002/2003 grime. It's amazing

― Aceveda (admrl), Tuesday, 28 August 2012 23:18 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.beatport.com/track/kingmob-vip-original-mix/3470534

― the late great, Tuesday, 28 August 2012 23:27 (thirteen years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDCtqk3nRic

― the late great, Tuesday, 28 August 2012 23:28 (thirteen years ago)

Given that the Rinse.fm livestream is essentially the only thing in my itunes right now, yes, I do remember grime. Living in the UK has acclimatised me to it a bit, and now I kind of regret sleeping on it as much as I have. Why the other night I had a dream where I was DJing and playing all this amazing grime, and then after waking up in the dream started complaining about why I can't find grime that sounds that good in waking life.

― formerly EDB (ed.b), Wednesday, 29 August 2012 08:00 (thirteen years ago)

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