Revolt of the ILX Brigade: New Post-Fahey Folk For PPL that post in the Takoma & Tompkin's Square Threads

Jack Rose = boring Fahey copyist.
― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:29 PM (8 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^ for posterity!

Well the thing is, anybody on the outside of a subgenre with a very specific sound and technique is going to accuse it of being all the same sounding. I don't know enough about black metal to appreciate subtleties for instance (yet, maybe some day).

i get that, but i don't think either ongmor nor helen have that problem -- clearly they know a lot abt the style of music etc. in fact, i tend to trust helen's opinions abt guitar music more than my own cuz she plays guitar and i do not at all. so my take on it is necessarily going to be grounded in something different than hers.

fair enough that ogmor isn't feeling the william tyler or daniel bachman stuff. i think an interesting element with a lot of the recent crop (recent meaning 15 years back or so?) is the way the takoma/fahey stuff plays off of the noise/drone scenes? like rose, jones, johnson and several others all come from this heavily "out" rock thing, but they've found their way into this rigorous acoustic music (or in jones' case, i guess that's kind of where he started?). i don't know if i have any deep point about it, but i like the tension between the avant rock aspects and the folkier trad aspects. (of course, we could say that fahey was the one who got that whole thing going in the 90s too!).

"going into it you almost just have to accept that there is a lot in the field that has been done before, not just by fahey but by sandy bull and robbie basho and peter walker and the other 60s instro-string heads"

I think this is very much true, and the mileage you get out of that reality varies both as a player and a listener. I am finding myself appreciating craft and effort/struggle in ways that I did not nearly as much as a younger music fan/listener. This stuff is hard to do well, and so when someone does it I think I cut them some slack in regards to the originality aspect in ways I may not for bands, though I don't have great examples at hand right now.

Yeah, it's funny. When listening to some GHQ stuff recommended on the Steve Gunn thread, I found myself digging the most trad guitar parts the most, whereas in 2004-2006 I would have probably wanted more of the drone. I do think some of this stuff keeps that tension there, but in a way I would be happier for some more tension to get inserted into it.

re: the concept of originality, i feel like this style operates necessarily within the folk realm, both in sound (acoustic instruments, 'old timey' tunes!) but also in spirit- i.e. operating within a vernacular. where borrowing/synthesizing/'copying' is key. as Fahey, et. al borrowed passages/quotations from many varied musical traditions, I don't see any issue with some sameie-ness in the current crop, and I think it's natural for them to similarly invoke/borrow. I'd say the interesting aspects of this genre come out of each player's interpretation and style... if you stake too much on originality you're bound to be disappointed. I mean, I'm floored by a lot of Jack Rose tunes, but you can absolutely pick out which songs of his were based on other prominent songs in the ~~American Primitive Ouvre~~. I mean- Catedral Et Chartres is so clearly of Basho (as are a lot of the longer 12 string explorations on that album), but Rose's flair and intensity (and even the fierce and LOUD production) make it worth listening to. The fact that it's not wholly original or 'sui generis' or w/e doesn't mean it isn't amazing.

And very practically, as broad and as varied as the stuff in this thread is, a lot of it all comes down to a single unaccompanied instrument, it is inherently pretty limiting. So I'd say it's remarkable that the stuff in this thread *is* as varied as it is, and a testament to the artistry of the players in question

Well-said global, and I agree: seeing just how much mileage people get out of a single unaccompanied instrument is pretty endlessly interesting to me these days, as long is they invest some real effort etc. into it.

good post global

also wrt william tyler, i mean....i hear fahey but i hear a lot of yo la tengo too or maybe moments of calexico it's p clear he comes from an indie rock perspective on this stuff and i don't think that's a bad thing

Speaking of Calexico, if anyone has ever heard any of their tour only albums that they'd reissued a year ago- many times they dive into instrumental experiments that I feel many of the people in this thread would love. I always have trouble determining if ILX has written them off or not by and large.

yeah i've heard a handful of those calexico things -- generally prefer their soundscapey/cinematic things to their more straightforward songwriting (which I've always found a little boring).

fyi the black twig pickers are playing in greenpoint, brooklyn tonight. at a bar called troost.

The Black Twigs were great when I saw them a few months ago. Crowd wasn't ideal, but once the band warmed up they had the crowd on board and it picked up fast. A couple of really great weepy ballads thrown in with the romps, but really they needed to play a little longer to take advantage of the energy they had built up. Was a three-band bill, so typical 45 minute sets or so. Hopefully they play longer in Brooklyn.

I like the idea of Calexico on paper, like, I wanna like them, and have given them a couple chances, but yeah, they strike me as slightly boring, and make me wish I was listening to whatever they're aping. (I guess this contradicts my long ramble up there re: originality.) I'd still like to hear a good full-band atmospheric/droney take on the whole fingerpicking Americana thing. I do like some of the Dodos stuff, but they tend to incorporate a punkier/poppier side so it doesn't quite scratch the itch. Eh. And ya, the Black Twig Pickers kick ass, generally, would strongly recommend attending that show!

Heard a Dosh remix of Charlie Parr (?!) on Radio K the other day, was actually pretty cool, as odd as the pairing sounds in concept. I'll try and track it down and post it in here, added a nice druggy wooziness. I only heard the tail end of it, but ya. And in non-post-Fahey goings on, scored a copy of the Thing at the Nursery Room Window for 5 bucks at the Fetus! Original Takoma pressing (were there any other pressings?). Anyway, sounds awesome. "Bituminous Nightmare" is my jam.

What Calexico have you tried? Depending on your answer I may follow up with "What are they aping" because I'd love to check out a list of RIYLs when it comes to their experimental + cinematic stuff.

I guess some Friends of Dean Martinez stuff sounds like what you're looking for, Evan?

Perhaps!

a lot of what i've heard from friends of dean martinez is pretty dope. spaced out morricone desert bliss.

I tried poking around their early albums as well as later stuff using Wikipedia/Allmusic as a guide, nothing really stuck with me. And I guess I should clarify: I don't know what they're aping, but I get the feeling there's something out there similar but *better*??I dunno. I maybe need a recommendation for a good starter! Lay the Calexico knowledge on me, Evan.

Checking out Friends of Dean Martinez now

ha! i remember them! totally accurate description. i copied some album of theirs on the same cd as the cat power covers album, so i always put them together in my mind even though they're not related at all
it veered a little toward syrupy rather than freaky but i remember liking it alright

i had atardecer

aptly named imo

atardecer is my fave FODM album

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTrgdYLzOoI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJAgnc5dEww

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9qRieKU0DE

xpost!

they're a bit loungey too, which i like. i have their debut lp on v1ny1

love friends of dean martinez, that's basically what I want from calexico...
some of you might like the new date palms record which is kinda slo-mo desert drone raga.
https://soundcloud.com/thrilljockey/date-palms-yuba-reprise

To all, I'd recommend of Calexico:

My favorite studio LP:

"Hot Rail"

The recently reissued tour only records:

"Travelall"
"Aerocalexico"
"The Book & the Canal"

I'll look for some youtubes in a bit... pretty busy atm

Of this vibe generally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcE2a0dki-0

dunno if we've mentioned her on this thread but Marissa Anderson has a new one out this month -- sounding quite good
http://marisaanderson.bandcamp.com/album/mercury

Okay, so a year or two ago I remember hearing a story on NPR about some guitarist who was way into playing jazz, and then he like lost a couple fingers, and discovered Fahey, and then embarked on a Neo-American-Primitive career? Anybody know who this was? Not to toot our own horn here but if he were any good he'd probably have been mentioned thus far, but was interesting enough I'd like to check him out in retrospect. I guess they didn't play too many of his tunes on the show, maybe he is awesome, I dunno. Interesting thought that you revert to Faheystyle only after losing some fingers, ha

i just wanted to say that c joynes is really, really good imo

Pleased as punch to discover William Tyler. Will be ordering both albums this weekend.

(he's also a Durutti Column fan! Yay!)

So, what's the ILM verdict on this Scott Key thing? I'm interested, but there aren't any Youtube clips or anything, and with shipping, the LP is like $26, so, err...convince me I need this album.

It's a fine record but it's not some transcendental experience or anything. Some of the songs with vocals are a bit goofy IIRC. It's got its own vibe, like it's not a serious guitar composition record imo but it's also not a nostalgia-fest. It's got a kind of hallucinatory, meandering vibe that I found suitable for long, hot summer days... I should re-listen to it really. I prob haven't pulled it out in a few years. I think he's got more than one record, but "The Forest And The Sea" is the only one I have

okay, jamming it now, i forgot just how FULL THROTTLE this record opens. dude is playing like he's amped up on that methamphetamine sheeit.

second track dials it back to a more lyrical approach with droning bass pluckin'

my memory of the second side being better than the first is validated. the pieces are longer and given more space to develop. they also DO feel more like 'serious compositions' than some of the jams on the first side. His bottleneck work is nice, especially at the end of the last piece. I don't know enough about guitar playing to describe a lot of this stuff properly. but when he takes things a bit slower it works better for me. some of his quick bottleneck stuff is just too busy for me to enjoy. it's exciting, in a way, but there isn't much that sticks with me -- if your knowledge of guitar technique is better than mine (which it almost definitely is) then you may hear something in it that i don't.

Thanks Ian - good review. This certainly doesn't sound like an essential $26 purchase for a man without any real income this summer. I guess I was expecting (hoping for?) more of a Twilight peaks sorta vibe?

nice steve gunn interview/overview

http://blurtonline.com/feature/gunn-control-steve-gunn/

i am always hoping for a twilight peaks vibe.

"The late Jack Rose, whose solo guitar pieces were instrumental in establishing the practice as a prominent form" < what would jack rose say about his founding role in the previously unestablished field of playing an acoustic guitar solo?

generally the quality of criticism & writing about solo guitar music is pretty terrible, & fahey (&now jack mb) is an eminent & recognisable enough figure that his name getting thrown around loosely is an inevitability. i don't think fahey has much to do w/ a lot of stuff in this thread tho, & the extent to which his name is invoked in interviews just for guitarists to go "yeah, i don't know that much of his stuff" is indicative of some collective cognitive failing when faced w/ a solo guitarist.

as has been stated, some of the stuff in here largely borrows more from [drab&twee] indie Americana & only intersects w/ takoma-ish music in a p trivial way. i wld prefer much more copying of john fahey tbh. fahey & basho picked up things from a huge range of ppl & were extremely ambitious copyists, tho not in a 'folk music' way - strongly disagree w/ global tetra here. all styles are vernaculars, but solo acoustic guitar of this ilk is primarily the domain of solitary young men w/ records, & is less Folk than bassline house, reggaeton, or any other style of music that necessitates leaving the house.

anyway, on its own merits, a lot of this stuff is too vague & formless for me, & when writers invoke Americana, or Folk, or talk about how Old the music sounds or w/e it just feels like a branding enterprise making ppl want to feel like they're sat on a porch casually spilling whisky into their voluptuous beard. hokey mountain man mystique can be fun to play around w/ but it's not True in any sense i recognise. i approve of deceiving yr audience, but not yrself.

was listening to this radio interview w/ basho again today & swooning as he talks about his "japanese period", his "amerindian period, his "veyr long hindu period" & his new "persian period". not sure if this has been posted before actually, but w/e, it's fabulous. shame about the piano playing. http://archive.org/details/OTG_1974_11_06

When I saw Tyler he told anecdotes about listening to the Bellamy Brothers in his ipod and fast food restaurants, he's hardly portraying himself as a mountain man

Yeah, WT is a pretty openly cosmopolitan dude. And I've never seen him with facial hair of any kind.

Ditto most of these guys. I wonder, ogmor, who you're classifying as a pretend mountain man? Because, in my experience, some of these guitar dudes can be pretty hermetic (Scott Tuma comes to mind), but not in the way you're describing. I'm mostly just curious, because I think the context you're describing is mostly an illusion on the part of the listener. A lot of the guys we're talking about in this thread are ex-punks, indie refugees, and citified record nerds, many of whom probably couldn't bait a fishhook. Is this, perhaps, a case of the 'European gaze?'

xp that was re: collective cognitive failing viz all this stuff rather than self-presentation. otoh, his track names - missionary ridge, green pastures, signal mountain, cadillac desert - bespeak a p boring approach to musical psychogeography. mb if he names a song after kfc ppl will stop pinning their sentimental dreck narratives on him & or mention fahey in interviews.

edd hurt makes a mountain man out of daniel bachman in this piece > http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashvillecream/archives/2012/11/26/daniel-bachman-the-cream-interview - bachman might be a 21st century guy, leading a fast-paced life, but he's in touch w/ the past, & definitely part of the venerable unique takoma tradition of playing music that makes people feel emotions of some kind. in hurt's defence though, bachman is literally standing on a porch on his album cover, making the narrative difficult to resist.

i am going to see bachman tmw so i can personally assess these claims & mb listen to his playing.

You must be fun to party with

lol, yeah, i'd relax a little bit about the *presentation* of this stuff. no one's going nuts claiming that this stuff is *MORE AUTHENTIC AND REAL* than anything else. there's no Takoma-ist movement happening. we're talking about, what two dozen people, three dozen playing this music seriously? c'mon, writers (including me) are just bullshitting, just trying to come up with a way to say, hey, i like how this sounds.

I don't even really expect a lot of people working on this space to necessarily innovate or scale the heights of fahey or bashing or w/e but I think that in this type of music each player has a certain personality or personal quirks to how they play and I enjoy hearing how different people approach things differently within a fairly narrow genre

Yeah, I think there is a lot of projection on the parts of writers and listeners surrounding this stuff, and necessarily so in a lot of respects. There are only so many ways to frame a single person and (mostly) a single guitar. In the case of a guy like Bachman, he really is from Virginia and sits on porches and plays shows on porches and is just playing all the time, whether there or on the road, so I don't think it is a stretch or contrived that this stuff gets included in the surrounding press and imagery, but I for one didn't think that that Edd Hurt piece suggested ""Mountain Man" at all, but hell, I live in Virginia so what do I know.

Ogmor, as far as Bachman's playing goes, the tape with Ian McColm on Feeding Tube is NOT typical finger-picking at all. It is very much an improv record (McColm plays mostly drums/percussion on it) and Bachman does a lot of droning/textural/more "out" stuff that is quite different from the solo stuff he has become known for. You may not see much of this at the show, but he does have more interests/range than his more well-known records would suggest (though you may find it just as un-moving as some of his other stuff, who knows?).

i doubt bachman could even grow a beard tbh