Revolt of the ILX Brigade: New Post-Fahey Folk For PPL that post in the Takoma & Tompkin's Square Threads

good job tyler!

yeah, i need to get that gunn record. i think our roommate just got it in the mail. or at least he got SOMETHING from paradise of bachelors...

steve is a super nice guy.

black twig pickers playing here next week, but it's the same night as a heavy free jazz gig so i am totally torn.

haha, thanks... the interview is the really interesting one.
i even started a wildly popular steve gunn thread this week: Steve Gunn
new album is great, i think everyone will like it. like, even my mom.

perhaps relevant to this thread from that interview

For instance, it’s hard to find a review of any of your records that doesn’t mention John Fahey. Similarly, I always laugh when I read a review of a Rick Bishop or a Six Organs record, and the writer can’t seem to come up with a single other guitar player to compare these guys to. Is this frustrating for you? And to what do you attribute this sudden renewed interest in guitar soli, or what-have-you?

Steve Gunn: I certainly think that Jack Rose set the bar for it. Over the years, he dealt with the whole Fahey comparison, but he managed to step out of that shadow and prove himself as his own being, and I think he started the renewed interest in that world. I certainly listened and studied a lot of that stuff, and Jack was actually a big inspiration for me to go down that road. But now it is a bit frustrating to still see that comparison, but people need something to grab onto when they write about music. I do find it a bit lazy when you can tell when you’re reading a review that the writer is just looking at other reviews and doing the Google thing, not listening to the music and interpreting it for themselves. I don’t know if that answers your question.

JJT: Well, I think some writers just lack some very fundamental understanding of the music. I saw a review of one of the great Imaginational Anthem compilations on Tompkins Square and they were going on and on about the shadow of Fahey – I mean, the first volume featured a track by Bern Nix, fer chrissakes. When I hear guys like you and William (Tyler), I hear as much Sandy Bull, Richard Thompson, and Jerry Garcia as I do anything from the so-called Takoma school.

Steve Gunn: Yeah, Fahey is just the easiest go-to reference for the whole fingerpicking thing. Jack set the bar and I was like, “There’s no way I’m going to step in and try to do what he does,” but at the same time, I was so inspired by him, I just wanted to turn it into my own thing. I’m hoping that when people hear this new record, people won’t be making those comparisons. I don’t really want to be lumped into that school.

he's got a point -- fahey definitely wouldn't be the reference point i'd use for this latest record (or a lot of his stuff, really). but i dunno, as this thread proves, the whole area is generally a wide range of sounds and approaches.

I can't imagine that anyone wants the Fahey comparison at this point, nor Jack Rose, though it is flattering if you touch those heights I guess. Still, I think the Dead nod is a good (and spot on) one, and the addition of singing and drums/bass definitely reframes any real Fahey-isms in a different light.

chuck johnson wfmu session from May is up on the free music archive: http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Chuck_Johnson/Live_at_WFMU_on_Irene_Trudels_Show_-_May_27_2013/

I feel those complaints in that it's lazy writing but if my playing gets good enough where ppl are inaccurately comparing me to fahey I'd consider that a good problem to have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMQuuZNvwLU

^^^ clarence & roland white, btw. 1973.

to resume my valued thread role as sourpuss... a few people expressed the idea that post-takoma guitar solo is having A Moment right now, & it does seem to be getting more coverage lately. the new glenn jones record is getting much more press than his previous ones - even reviewed on pitchfork (!) - though it's not a radical departure in style or quality from his first four solo records. I'm a little bemused by the affection for william tyler & daniel bachman here as they seem painfully bland to me. I think guitar music was having a better & less boring Moment in the mid 00s with the guitarists crawling out of the free folk/brattleboro festival scene giving critics a focus while they digested the fahey & basho reissues as they poured out. superior records from ppl like harris newman, steffen basho junghans, jack rose, ben chasny's better stuff & of course, glenn jones.

anyway, to be more positive, you should all listen to manchester hometown hereo & best-kept secret, dbh (dan bridgewood-hill), a first-class guitarist w/ seemingly no interest in self-promotion. he put out a record in december called time flies which, in the name of controversy, i deem easily the best guitar record of the 2010s so far. it's probably sold out but i've just spotted it's on spotify. it has a few duets on there but his solo stuff is particularly gorgeous. technically very fresh, light, extremely melodic, painfully pretty, everyone i've played it to has loved it. gets stuck in my head all the time.

first track > http://dbhmusic.bandcamp.com/releases

video of him playing 'fix' on an electric, way up in the skeleton of an unfinished building against the mcr skyline > http://vimeo.com/43571998

spotify > http://open.spotify.com/album/4Oq8HJhXnjJucSwEGEyQMZ

he played an amazing set supporting glenn jones last year & will be opening for daniel bachman when he comes to town, so mb my opinion of the latter will improve seeing him live.

I don't know I think William Tyler is being talked about because there are actual memorable melodies on the record, and relatively varied "atmospheres" (production etc.). I'll admit that I find too many of these people dance aimlessly around the note that's droning in pieces so it's refreshing when I'm humming more than the last track I listened to at the time.

To be real contrarian, the droniness of this style is what I love and is exactly what fascinates me about it... the harmonics and overtones inherent in an open-tuned wood-bodied instrument are just unlike anything else imo

droniness is a virtue, sure, but, say, some of basho-junghans more out-there early/mid 00s output is lush and spacious while playing w/ drones, overtones &c. w/ ludicrous sui generis technical proficiency

quickly perusing Spotify- is Waters in Azure along the lines of this early/mid 00s output you're talking about? The first track is him bending a fretted note without plucking or strumming at all and basically shaking the guitar and drawing out some prolonged resonance, fucking awesome, so probably, yes, along the lines of what you're talking about???

yeah all that strange attractors stuff. waters in azure, inside, 7 books, rivers & bridges. he hasn't released anything since 2009 afaict, which is odd given that he was pretty prolific throughout the 00s and is still performing live

if you ever get the chance to see him play live, you have to. I had no idea how he was going to do certain things, and he made it look completely effortless. trying to copy what he does with his right hand and it just sounds like a muffled, awkward mess. he's Quite A Character in person too, not necessarily the most easy-going individual, but he's hugely knowledgeable and has done as much as anyone to spread robbie basho's music. I think he feels a little bit under-appreciated, which given his talent is understandable. he's got a massive back catalogue though, been playing since the 80s, and has gone through several evolutions during that time.

To clarify, I don't have any problem with the drone- I was talking about when many pieces don't have any melodic direction in the notes that dance around a droning note.

Or it isn't very clear or memorable.

Very glad that someone upthread mentioned Michael Chapman. His early records have had nice reissues of late, but he also put out a more recent instrumental retrospective called Trainsong (1967-2010) that is gorgeous.

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/15384-trainsong-guitar-compositions-19672010-fully-qualified-survivor/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYbeMpqN2EY

ongmor -- driving around yesterday we were listening to helen's ipod and john fahey's 'great san bernardino birthday party' came on, and she said something along the lines of, "you know, there are a lot of people who play guitar like this but they just try to play like john fahey and aren't very original.." and i think to some extent that's true. so you're not alone in thinking some of these guys are a bit overrated.

i didn't really know how to respond. i guess when people play in a roots/americana style they get tagged as fahey-imitators, but it's funny that when people try to play like robbie basho or construct 'eastern sounding' tunes, they avoid criticism--even when fahey did that too. fahey is a monumental figure by virtue of making so many records and experimenting so much with style -- besides the american roots-influenced style he also played lots of ragas, experimented with electric guitar, played duets with all sorts of instruments, added elements of musique concrete to his music. it's hard to escape that for a lot of people who want to make guitar music, i think.

going into it you almost just have to accept that there is a lot in the field that has been done before, not just by fahey but by sandy bull and robbie basho and peter walker and the other 60s instro-string heads. do you want to be innovative as a composer or do you want to play music that you like to listen to? i don't mind listening to something that is not pioneering or stylistically individual. it's again in how you approach it. years ago, around the time jack rose's second record came out, i remember old-time hstencil saying to me he was a 'fahey copyist' and i thought 'so what?' and i still kind of think 'so what?'

sorry i am rambling nonsense now.

Jack Rose = boring Fahey copyist.
― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:29 PM (8 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^ for posterity!

Well the thing is, anybody on the outside of a subgenre with a very specific sound and technique is going to accuse it of being all the same sounding. I don't know enough about black metal to appreciate subtleties for instance (yet, maybe some day).

i get that, but i don't think either ongmor nor helen have that problem -- clearly they know a lot abt the style of music etc. in fact, i tend to trust helen's opinions abt guitar music more than my own cuz she plays guitar and i do not at all. so my take on it is necessarily going to be grounded in something different than hers.

fair enough that ogmor isn't feeling the william tyler or daniel bachman stuff. i think an interesting element with a lot of the recent crop (recent meaning 15 years back or so?) is the way the takoma/fahey stuff plays off of the noise/drone scenes? like rose, jones, johnson and several others all come from this heavily "out" rock thing, but they've found their way into this rigorous acoustic music (or in jones' case, i guess that's kind of where he started?). i don't know if i have any deep point about it, but i like the tension between the avant rock aspects and the folkier trad aspects. (of course, we could say that fahey was the one who got that whole thing going in the 90s too!).

"going into it you almost just have to accept that there is a lot in the field that has been done before, not just by fahey but by sandy bull and robbie basho and peter walker and the other 60s instro-string heads"

I think this is very much true, and the mileage you get out of that reality varies both as a player and a listener. I am finding myself appreciating craft and effort/struggle in ways that I did not nearly as much as a younger music fan/listener. This stuff is hard to do well, and so when someone does it I think I cut them some slack in regards to the originality aspect in ways I may not for bands, though I don't have great examples at hand right now.

Yeah, it's funny. When listening to some GHQ stuff recommended on the Steve Gunn thread, I found myself digging the most trad guitar parts the most, whereas in 2004-2006 I would have probably wanted more of the drone. I do think some of this stuff keeps that tension there, but in a way I would be happier for some more tension to get inserted into it.

re: the concept of originality, i feel like this style operates necessarily within the folk realm, both in sound (acoustic instruments, 'old timey' tunes!) but also in spirit- i.e. operating within a vernacular. where borrowing/synthesizing/'copying' is key. as Fahey, et. al borrowed passages/quotations from many varied musical traditions, I don't see any issue with some sameie-ness in the current crop, and I think it's natural for them to similarly invoke/borrow. I'd say the interesting aspects of this genre come out of each player's interpretation and style... if you stake too much on originality you're bound to be disappointed. I mean, I'm floored by a lot of Jack Rose tunes, but you can absolutely pick out which songs of his were based on other prominent songs in the ~~American Primitive Ouvre~~. I mean- Catedral Et Chartres is so clearly of Basho (as are a lot of the longer 12 string explorations on that album), but Rose's flair and intensity (and even the fierce and LOUD production) make it worth listening to. The fact that it's not wholly original or 'sui generis' or w/e doesn't mean it isn't amazing.

And very practically, as broad and as varied as the stuff in this thread is, a lot of it all comes down to a single unaccompanied instrument, it is inherently pretty limiting. So I'd say it's remarkable that the stuff in this thread *is* as varied as it is, and a testament to the artistry of the players in question

Well-said global, and I agree: seeing just how much mileage people get out of a single unaccompanied instrument is pretty endlessly interesting to me these days, as long is they invest some real effort etc. into it.

good post global

also wrt william tyler, i mean....i hear fahey but i hear a lot of yo la tengo too or maybe moments of calexico it's p clear he comes from an indie rock perspective on this stuff and i don't think that's a bad thing

Speaking of Calexico, if anyone has ever heard any of their tour only albums that they'd reissued a year ago- many times they dive into instrumental experiments that I feel many of the people in this thread would love. I always have trouble determining if ILX has written them off or not by and large.

yeah i've heard a handful of those calexico things -- generally prefer their soundscapey/cinematic things to their more straightforward songwriting (which I've always found a little boring).

fyi the black twig pickers are playing in greenpoint, brooklyn tonight. at a bar called troost.

The Black Twigs were great when I saw them a few months ago. Crowd wasn't ideal, but once the band warmed up they had the crowd on board and it picked up fast. A couple of really great weepy ballads thrown in with the romps, but really they needed to play a little longer to take advantage of the energy they had built up. Was a three-band bill, so typical 45 minute sets or so. Hopefully they play longer in Brooklyn.

I like the idea of Calexico on paper, like, I wanna like them, and have given them a couple chances, but yeah, they strike me as slightly boring, and make me wish I was listening to whatever they're aping. (I guess this contradicts my long ramble up there re: originality.) I'd still like to hear a good full-band atmospheric/droney take on the whole fingerpicking Americana thing. I do like some of the Dodos stuff, but they tend to incorporate a punkier/poppier side so it doesn't quite scratch the itch. Eh. And ya, the Black Twig Pickers kick ass, generally, would strongly recommend attending that show!

Heard a Dosh remix of Charlie Parr (?!) on Radio K the other day, was actually pretty cool, as odd as the pairing sounds in concept. I'll try and track it down and post it in here, added a nice druggy wooziness. I only heard the tail end of it, but ya. And in non-post-Fahey goings on, scored a copy of the Thing at the Nursery Room Window for 5 bucks at the Fetus! Original Takoma pressing (were there any other pressings?). Anyway, sounds awesome. "Bituminous Nightmare" is my jam.

What Calexico have you tried? Depending on your answer I may follow up with "What are they aping" because I'd love to check out a list of RIYLs when it comes to their experimental + cinematic stuff.

I guess some Friends of Dean Martinez stuff sounds like what you're looking for, Evan?

Perhaps!

a lot of what i've heard from friends of dean martinez is pretty dope. spaced out morricone desert bliss.

I tried poking around their early albums as well as later stuff using Wikipedia/Allmusic as a guide, nothing really stuck with me. And I guess I should clarify: I don't know what they're aping, but I get the feeling there's something out there similar but *better*??I dunno. I maybe need a recommendation for a good starter! Lay the Calexico knowledge on me, Evan.

Checking out Friends of Dean Martinez now

ha! i remember them! totally accurate description. i copied some album of theirs on the same cd as the cat power covers album, so i always put them together in my mind even though they're not related at all
it veered a little toward syrupy rather than freaky but i remember liking it alright

i had atardecer

aptly named imo

atardecer is my fave FODM album

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTrgdYLzOoI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJAgnc5dEww

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9qRieKU0DE

xpost!

they're a bit loungey too, which i like. i have their debut lp on v1ny1

love friends of dean martinez, that's basically what I want from calexico...
some of you might like the new date palms record which is kinda slo-mo desert drone raga.
https://soundcloud.com/thrilljockey/date-palms-yuba-reprise

To all, I'd recommend of Calexico:

My favorite studio LP:

"Hot Rail"

The recently reissued tour only records:

"Travelall"
"Aerocalexico"
"The Book & the Canal"

I'll look for some youtubes in a bit... pretty busy atm

Of this vibe generally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcE2a0dki-0

dunno if we've mentioned her on this thread but Marissa Anderson has a new one out this month -- sounding quite good
http://marisaanderson.bandcamp.com/album/mercury