Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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which bangs essay are you talking about alfred?

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:29 (nineteen years ago)

("Beat of My Heart" does what, say, "Mr. Brightside" wants but doesn't have the guts to do -- economically pares the lyrics down to four to six manageable words plus a smattering of simple verses, delivers the hook with a sledgehammer -- which Killers are doing, too, but they're like the people at the "ring the bell" carnival game who act like they don't REALLY care to hide the fact that THEY CAN'T RING THE BELL. Hilary doesn't worry so much about the narrative, though there's some strange conflict happening...if she's listening to her heartbeat, learning to dance, up from her down, etc., why is the same beat also "tearing them apart"? What the hell does "away away" mean? Is she doomed?)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:30 (nineteen years ago)

unless they've clearly got professional-level skills like Jordin Sparks

I like Jordin too, but she could use some Autotune.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:30 (nineteen years ago)

Alfred: much cleverer and maybe better (direct) Stones rip is Fefe Dobson's (unreleased) "Get You Off." "Hey! Hey! You! You! Get off of my baaaaaack..." preceded by "I'll do anything to get you off! To get you OFF MY BACK!"

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:32 (nineteen years ago)

which bangs essay are you talking about alfred?

The one about his ambivalence towards Kim Carnes' "Bette Davis Eyes."

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:32 (nineteen years ago)

Hilary doesn't worry so much about the narrative, though there's some strange conflict happening...if she's listening to her heartbeat, learning to dance, up from her down, etc., why is the same beat also "tearing them apart"? What the hell does "away away" mean? Is she doomed?

see, this is kind of what I've been talking about, these kinds of enthusiastic attempts to pin down the logic in a boring heart/start/apart rhyme scheme, painting the lack of narrative or any sense at all as an asset. I guess this is a good example of how the teenpop thread tends to exert a lot of evergy asking questions with very simple or at least not particularly interesting answers.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:37 (nineteen years ago)

ugh, evergy=energy

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:38 (nineteen years ago)

yeah alex otm, i just feel like saying 'you know dudes, sometimes an apple is just an apple' about a lot of this stuff

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:40 (nineteen years ago)

(I threw in "is she doomed" especially for this thread, it was like a cherry on top.)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:41 (nineteen years ago)

(not an apple on top)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:41 (nineteen years ago)

My point, though, is that "Beat of My Heart" (like "Gypsy Woman") is actually quite ILLOGICAL. There's no reason they had to rhyme "heart" with "apart." "The beat of my heart (etc.)/ We never will part"...so there IS conflict, legitimately, just as there's conflict in "Yer pushin' too hard on meeeeeee," which is a simple lyric. "Now I'm gonna be twenty-two/ I say oh my and boo hoo" = one of the best lyrics EVER WRITTEN. Try to pin the logic down in the boring rhyme scheme and you might be writing excellent music criticism (Lester Bangs, for instance).

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:43 (nineteen years ago)

"Beat of My Heart" does what, say, "Mr. Brightside" wants but doesn't have the guts to do

OK, funny, because I just listened to "Beat of My Heart" and I kept thinking "this sort of sounds like 'Mr. Brightside' but defanged." The song's not horrible, but I don't hear a whole lot of character in Hilary's voice. I mean, Brandon Flowers can sound kind of blank sometimes, too, but on "Mr. Brightside" I hear this self-loathing panic in his voice. Plus, there's the clever part where you think he's going to say "dick" but he doesn't. The best part in "Beat of My Heart" is that little guitar figure in the "awaaay awaaay" part, but I find the guitar on "Mr. Brightside" to be more interesting throughout, from the spidery arpeggios of the verse to the sharp, jutting lines in the chorus.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:44 (nineteen years ago)

he wasn't ambivalent, alfred. he said he hated it.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:44 (nineteen years ago)

"Duff’s decision to focus on the ecstasy of dance-pop and pop-rock force you to deal with a rather queasy issue: her inability to sound ecstatic...The yearning and desire in her lyrics feel mandatory rather than inspired."

miccio wrote that two years ago, and i've yet to hear anything that makes me feel otherwise.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:45 (nineteen years ago)

thinking gives you wrinkles

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:45 (nineteen years ago)

And how about when the lyrics are complex and heartbreaking? Ashlee: "Maybe you don't love me like I love you, baby, because the broken in you doesn't make me run." Also a source of excellent criticism (by Tim F last year).

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:46 (nineteen years ago)

the "mandatory" thing is what bangs is talking about in that column or whatever it was.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:46 (nineteen years ago)

thinking gives you wrinkles

-- Eppy, Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:45 PM (1 minute ago)

miccio used to say this a lot too

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:47 (nineteen years ago)

See, but now we're actually arguing on the teenpop thread's terms. You're (implicitly) arguing for why the teenpop thread is a good thing, because Miccio could just has easily have argued that point (and dealt with people arguing something different) and it would have only enriched the conversation. (As far as taste goes, I really love androids, and Hilary's like the perfect android with a couple of weird glitches in it. Very endearing.)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:48 (nineteen years ago)

we all love the simpsons, yes

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:48 (nineteen years ago)

i think it's not so much "her inability to feel ecstatic" so much as the fact that that music simply makes no real efforts to actually approach genuine ecstasy.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:49 (nineteen years ago)

(And the reason I love androids is because my insulin pump makes me feel PART MACHINE myself, so I can almost empathize with someone like Hilary. Or Nick Jonas, who is an android...with an insulin pump!!)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:49 (nineteen years ago)

or i could say "it's a bunch of phony bullshit"

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:49 (nineteen years ago)

No, Ashlee's NOT an android. See Rolling Teenpop 2006 for about fifty thousand examples.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:50 (nineteen years ago)

i have no problem with forced ecstasy either, i should point out. i just like it when it's constructed in such a way that it doesn't foreground the obligation aspect in either songwriting or production.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:50 (nineteen years ago)

nothing is more forced ecstatic than trance or happy hardcore, and yet neither of them feel like the producer and/or songwriter and/or singer would rather be playing xbox or doing their toenails.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (nineteen years ago)

he wasn't ambivalent, alfred. he said he hated it.

He hated the song, was ambivalent about what it portended. Whatever.

see, this is kind of what I've been talking about, these kinds of enthusiastic attempts to pin down the logic in a boring heart/start/apart rhyme scheme, painting the lack of narrative or any sense at all as an asset. I guess this is a good example of how the teenpop thread tends to exert a lot of evergy asking questions with very simple or at least not particularly interesting answers

We're going 'round the mulberry bush here. Isn't this what critics do, like, ALL THE TIME? Like, I'm trying to figure out why this new Field record bores me while my peers think it's masterful.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (nineteen years ago)

the best examples, i should say.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (nineteen years ago)

"Beat of My Heart": great songwriting, great production! Dude from Good Charlotte at the knobs!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (nineteen years ago)

well you've certainly convinced me

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:52 (nineteen years ago)

we're not gonna have to do another lex-ethering sessions as per upthread are we?

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:52 (nineteen years ago)

nothing is more forced ecstatic than trance or happy hardcore, and yet neither of them feel like the producer and/or songwriter and/or singer would rather be playing xbox or doing their toenails.

But if I'm "forced" to do anything (even feel ecstasy), wouldn't I want to play xbox or paint my toenails anyway?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:53 (nineteen years ago)

it's a good thing there are objective truths about music.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:53 (nineteen years ago)

I mean this would all be pretty ridiculous otherwise huh?

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:53 (nineteen years ago)

"forced" in the sense that it's their only note

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:54 (nineteen years ago)

assembly line, blah blah

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:54 (nineteen years ago)

Treating teenpop the way old school crit-dorks treat Dylan-types (that earnest, benefit-of-the-doubt "what do they mean?" thing) is refreshing at first, but then you realize that some people treat teenpoppers the way old-school crit-dorks treat Dylan-types but seem to not do it for anyone else with the same passion. It's as if they don't want to give every artist under the sun this kind of enraptured attention, just young ladies. And being scalliwags ourselves, we assume the funniest and most logical reasons for this.

btw, I can't believe Jess still remembers my Duff review. Flattered!

― da croupier, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:55 (nineteen years ago)

(or am I misinterpreting that...what is the "obligation aspect"?)

No, I don't really go in for "this is great, period." I can't really go that deep into what I like about "Beat of My Heart," except to say her voice suits its insistence and ambivalence (the song is actually NOT about ecstasy -- the "beat of my heart, it tears us apart!!!"), she doesn't overshoot the mark with chops, either (kind of how Lillix find a nice balance in "Sweet Temptation"; a "better" singer would have killed that song, though Hilary might have even been a better choice for it -- this is what Abby Poptext argued at the time on the teenpop trhead).

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:55 (nineteen years ago)

i'm not saying that trance or happy hardcore producers don't sit down to make music and draw on their HOPES AND DREAMS AND PAINS AND FEARS and whatnot, but they're working, by and large, within a template, and so yr not gonna get a lot of deviation based on "organic" songwriting, this one's from the heart blah blah blah

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:55 (nineteen years ago)

some people treat teenpoppers the way old-school crit-dorks treat Dylan-types but seem to not do it for anyone else with the same passion

who?

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:57 (nineteen years ago)

the lex

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:57 (nineteen years ago)

throw some minimal techno in there too

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:57 (nineteen years ago)

It's as if they don't want to give every artist under the sun this kind of enraptured attention, just young ladies. And being scalliwags ourselves, we assume the funniest and most logical reasons for this.

There is definitely a gender gap in the teenpop thread (there's an opposite gender gap on the hip-hop threads, indie threads, metal threads etc...gender balance is only close to perfect on the country thread!). However, we spend most of our time talking about ladies, but not nec. "young ladies"...Ashlee and Marit Larsen probably got more discussion last year (by a long shot) than, say, Miley Cyrus. Marit also put out the best album of last year without question, which explains better why we talked about her so much.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:58 (nineteen years ago)

when yr over 25 they're all "young ladies" dude

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:58 (nineteen years ago)

is r&b teenpop now? (xpost)

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:58 (nineteen years ago)

and wait, I thought we didn't want people to be dilettantes, so sticking to one genre should be good right?

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:59 (nineteen years ago)

could we form a blue-ribbon committee and get a report here?

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:00 (nineteen years ago)

yr not gonna get a lot of deviation based on "organic" songwriting, this one's from the heart blah blah blah

You hardly ever get this with Hilary Duff (case in point: her dance remix to "Come Clean" wipes the floor with the original more rock-based one). Her only successful foray into angst-rock so to speak is "Fly," which is weirdly sterile. I like it for its sterility, though.

Ashlee and Aly and AJ, on the other hand, do "organic songwriting" better than a lot of singer-songwriters! "Not This Year" is the best serious/sad Christmas novelty of the decade (at least), "I Am One of Them" about child kidnapping scares/frustrates the shit outta me.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:00 (nineteen years ago)

homey i'm not even sure if you can read at this point

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:01 (nineteen years ago)

we all love the simpsons, yes

hah to clarify i meant this a compliment of miccio's arguing style + challenging people to think

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 18:06 (nineteen years ago)

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