Bikini Kill - C or D?

That is one of the fundamental problems that I have with riot grrl, is their and/or the press's wish to dismiss ALL female rockers as being part of a tiny subculture. That is marginalisation, and that is wrong.

That's as insulting and dismissing as say all black musicians = rap. It's just not true.

Do you consider yourself a Riot Grrl, Di? That's a serious question.

To clarify matters, I am NOT one, yet the moment I start shooting my mouth off about feminism, I get dismissed as one by the mainstream. Yet to "real" Riot Grrls, I bear about as much relation to one as a liberal does to a Marxist. (Maybe that is part of why I dislike the movement... nah. It's just insult to injury.)

do you think all punk music is outdated, kate?

Yes. I think most punk music IS outdated. (Most ROCK in general is outdated, but that doesn't stop me from playing it.) Punk was a reaction to certain socio-economic constraints and cultural mores. To play punk in 1970s UK or late 80s/early 90s US was a revolutionary political and musical statement.

Now it stinks of retrofetishism. Don't play your grandparent's music as a form of rebellion against your parents.

yes i do consider myself a riot grrrl, although i often make music that doesn't fit into the olympia-style format. and i also believe punk is important too, though obviously not in its neo fake blink 182 form. if it weren't for punk and riot grrrl i would never have picked up a guitar. everyone has to start somewhere, right? i don't subscribe to the idea that everyone has to be a master at their instrument before they can make interesting original music. but i also don't believe that people should stick to formulas either.

and i believe thats one of the reasons why the riot grrrls did the whole press blackout thing

If they'd stuck to the original press blackout thing, fair enough. But these days... having been part of a rugby style pile-on of neo-riot grrls stabbing each other in the back to get access to The Mainstream Press, well, it makes one a bit cynical.

Maybe my problem was that I was too OLD for riot grrl. My first exposure to women in music was NOT riot grrl, I had already been in a band for a couple of years when it exploded. So it seemed simplistic and overstating the obvious, to me.

I think that the original Riot Grrls knew that from its inception, the movement was going to be misunderstood and misinterpreted, but my understanding was that, the British version at least, (which I have slightly more respect for than their American cousins) was BUILT with an expectation that it would explode and end, like situationism, like dada. Hence why I get so irritated when people are still at it 10 years later, like don't you UNDERSTAND the point? The Riot Grrls I have the most respect for are the ones who grew up and took their political and feminist ideals out into the world, instead of just staying in this treehouse club.

if it weren't for punk and riot grrrl i would never have picked up a guitar. everyone has to start somewhere, right?

Fair enough. If it wasn't for the Shop Assistants and Sonic Youth, I'd probably have never picked up a guitar. I don't believe everyone has to be a prodigy to start a band, but I do believe that you should aspire to aquire some technical skills as you go on. (Kathleen Hannah still has to have Amy Ray change her guitar strings for her onstage! sheesh!)

All musical movements stultify and stagnate as they mature, and become reduced to formulae. It's happened to punk, too.

When music as an artform becomes secondary to philosophy or politics, that's where I get off. I dislike that in all artforms, be it punk rock or conceptual art.

One of the many reasons I love the woman.

(Why is it every time I type CL, I want to type CTCL, much like I can't type Blue without automatically typing Blur?)

My god, three posts in a row, I'm turning into Doomie! Help!

but I do believe that you should aspire to aquire some technical skills as you go on
i wholeheartedly agree with this. thats what i meant regarding people not sticking to formulas.

Just one more comment before I go to rehearsal (famous last words... I'm going to be late for the first time ever because of this):

About the technical proficiency issue. The world of music is loaded with stories of bands who were so wildly creative that they did not fully know how to play their instruments when they recorded their first album (Echo and the Bunnymen, Joy Division, etc.) but this does not reflect badly on the artists in question, for some reason, in fact, it only serves to build their legends.

One of the principles of Riot Grrl was that passion and having something to say were more important than technical ability. Yet instead of underlining *their* native genius, somehow this gets filtered as support for the wildly innaccurate press view that girls cannot play guitar.

Is this entirely the fault of the press, or is riot grrl somehow complicit in perpetuating the stereotype? I can't answer that question, I'm biased.

But anyway, back to Bikini Kill - I CAN never and WILL never be able to get past the abrasive quality of Kathleen Hannah's vocals. I just can't do it. Didn't we have a thread on that topic? I should really go post her on it. Might actually be tempted to like the band if it wasn't for her voice.

Is this entirely the fault of the press, or is riot grrl somehow complicit in perpetuating the stereotype?

good question. i guess this depends on how you define riot grrrl. i have a pretty loose definition, such that i would say sleater-kinney count as riot grrrls, even though they have long since rejected the label. they can definitely play their instruments (carrie, oh my godess). however because they seem to be the only riot grrrl band that counts as far as the music press goes, i think they get treated as the exceptions that prove the rule. so yeah i think it is mostly the fault of the press (although bands like the c**lies - and i'm sure there are bands like that everywhere, certainly don't help to nip that myth in the bud).

nor do i (only if it's MUD FITE!).

julio's a good reason of why it was good that riot grrl existed.

oh no! the curse of ILM!! oh no!!!

Jeez...it was only a joke (you riot gurls take things far too seriously).

no, that's Jess' good point, which is why I'm in the ''jokey'' sunday afternoon, there's-nothing-here mood.

I don't care if you think it was funny or not maan!

I rather think that's the point.

Speaking from my silly ol' heart, both Kate and Di rock, and rock well. Different sources, different experiences etc. helped give them the desire to get on stage and actually do something, and as they said above, this is a case -- like so many other musical or artistic or social movements (and punk is as good an example as any in the larger scope) -- that what for one is cosseting and limiting is for another angle thrilling and liberating. All depends on where yer at, who you are, hell even when you were born.

I do think it's interesting that we're having the same kind of heated discussions over Riot Grrrl now that we did in 1991. You very rarely hear people discussing whether Nirvana sold out or why Ian MacKaye disapproves of drinking alcohol...but bring up Bikini Kill or Riot Grrrl, and it's like that cut still hasn't scabbed over after 12 years.

I have seen discussion of that actually.

Jess only if they have lots of cute boys with shaggy haircuts, tee hee!!

Oh, GOD, no! If you're referring to Bobby G and Primal Scream, I canNOT BEAR to listen to that man going on about politics. But his political oversimplifications only prove his stupidity, and I find dumb men REALLY attractive in a himbo sort of way...

If they themselves have rejected and abandonned the label, is it really fair to continue to pidgeonhole them? I no longer thing of S/K as anything even approaching a riot grrl band.

(although bands like the c**lies - and i'm sure there are bands like that everywhere, certainly don't help to nip that myth in the bud).

Too many riot grrl bands still take this approach. We played with an Oxford riot grrl band who actually announced before their set "we didn't bother tuning. But it's OK cause we didn't bother rehearsing either." Someone in the audience yelled "Yeah, and it shows!" And it did indeed show, which I found incredibly frustrating, considering the amount of effort my band had put into rehearsing and preparing for the show. Yet WE get judged by the low criteria girls like THEM establish.

Julio: Jeez...it was only a joke (you riot gurls take things far too seriously).

Remember, Riot Grrls are still participating in the Great Feminist Humour Boycott of 1973. Womyn will boycott humour until equality is achieved!

Q: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: That's not funny!

Q: How many riot grrls does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None, cause riot grrls'll never change anything.

Sorry, I'm really enthusiastic. Rehearsal ROXORED today. I don't know when we turned into the sort of band that broke into impromptu covers of Back In Black halfway through middle 8s, but I *like* it. Take that, "Girls can't play guitar" Riot Grrl bee-yatchs!

Oops I forgot, must be more ploitically correct (and be more telepathic!).

probably not fair. however they may not make punk rock anymore but the RG concerns (all hands) and influence are still there. haha postriotgrrrlism!

I think that the latter part of this sentence is still pretty much the case in most societal outposts.

Also it's quite troubling to me that a lot of the outward signifiers of riot grrrl -- NB i was really into riot grrrl music in late high school/early college but very removed from the actual organization, in (probably larger than I want to admit) part because of old adolescent female wounds that made me fairly wary of dealing with large groups of women -- got turned inside-out and transformed into badges for younger women who would rather be fat than feminist. But perhaps that's fodder for a different discussion? Or is that the end result of what Kate cites as 'simplistic' political imagery?

And in case you were wondering: 'Carnival,' 'Feels Blind,' 'New Radio,' and pretty much all of PUSSY WHIPPED are classic, 'Reject All American' pretty dud.

Okay, so if I only ever get one trip in a time machine, I will use it to travel to the early '90s so I can inform Kathleen Hanna that Billy Ray Cyrus's daughter is going to perform 'Rebel Girl' at the Super Bowl in thirty years.

FWIW, if you're in NYC and would like to go to tonight's show at Irving Plaza, there's a TON of ridiculously cheap tickets on Stubhub.

https://www.stubhub.com/bikini-kill-new-york-tickets-7-9-2022/event/105268869/

I grabbed one for "$11" an hour ago (wound up being $19 after fees) but asking prices have dropped further.

IIRC, StubHub stops selling concert tickets four hours before showtime, so you only have 20 minutes as of this posting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uegwd_rBek

Just bought her book last week after Marcus raved about it.

(Kathleen Hanna, that is.)

Saw one of their revival shows at the Brooklyn Paramount last week. It was pretty great. Kathleen Hanna was quite the chatterbox, but it is nice when older groups talk about the old days and reflect on how their lives have changed since then, and even send out positive messages to the younger generation, all of which they did.

For NYC locals, the Paramount is a gorgeous venue, don’t hesitate to go there. Only problem is drink prices are outrageous, you won’t have more than one drink there.

I missed their two Baltimore gigs due to conflicts. Haven't seen them in a long time. They had Birthday Girl DC (with one of Brendan Canty's kids, and one of Alec Mackaye's kids) open one night.

currently reading Rebel Girl, it's good! not very far into it so I don't have much to say yet.